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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    We didn't actually try to overthrow him ever. Chris Dodd called for an investigation into this possibility, and they determined that there was no U.S. military involvement in the coup in 2002. Of course, I don't doubt that Washington withheld the intelligence that a coup was in the works, nor do I think that they were unhappy about that fact, but we didn't do it. In the end, I don't feel bad for Chavez, as he is no stranger to taking power by coup d'etat. On the positive side, it looks as if elections are getting to be more transparent, and Chavez will be gone soon enough.
    You should peruse the foreign press - who tend to be a bit more partial when it comes to US coup attempts.

    Venezuela coup linked to Bush team | World news | The Observer

    Democracy Now! | CIA Documents Show Bush Knew of 2002 Coup in Venezuela

    How many domestic news sources were admitting we were trying to overthrow - Manley (Jamaica), Castro, Cheddi (Guyana), Mossadedgh (Iran), Allende (Chile), Arbenz (Guatemala), Arosemana (Ecuador) Bosch (Dominican Republic), Papandreous (Greece), Torres (Bolivia), Velasco (Ecuador) and dozens of others - when it was actually occurring.

    MOST of the above succeeded, except Castro and Chavez and ALL of them are verifiable by desclassified documents today except for Chavez because it's too recent to have that information declassified. I think there is a 20 year rule before the information is released. A good thing too, because the majority of politically motivated folks - get too old and self interested 20 years after the fact; and are more focused on what school their kid is going to get accepted into.

    The next generation thinks, we don't do that kind of stuff anymore, not anymore. We're far more civilized now.
    Bush and the neocons would never do such a thing, no way.....

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    I hate fascism and socialism. Sorry! I'm big on the ol' liberal democracy/constitutional republic bandwagon. It's not "conservative" to say "Don't jail your political critics" or "Don't take broadcasting licenses away from independent news networks."
    "On the surface, it seems to Chavez’s critics that he is finally doing what they have long predicted — creating a totalitarian state in the image of his mentor, Fidel Castro. But the situation in Venezuela is a little more complex than what many in the media and the establishment make it out to be. Take, for example, Chavez’s decision not to renew the license of RCTV television network when it expires in May. At first blush, this would certainly seem to be reason for alarm — a government shutting down a television station because it doesn’t like its editorial bent.

    But RCTV is not exactly your average television station. In April 2002, it promoted and participated in a coup against Chavez in which a democratically elected president was overthrown by military rebels and disappeared for two days until large street protests and a counter-coup returned him to power. For two days before the coup, RCTV suspended all regular programming and commercials and ran blanket coverage of a general strike aimed at ousting Chavez. Then it ran non-stop ads encouraging people to attend a massive anti-Chavez march on April 11, 2002, and provided wall-to-wall coverage of the event itself with nary a pro-Chavez voice in sight."

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by meanlittlechimp View Post
    You should peruse the foreign press - who tend to be a bit more partial when it comes to US coup attempts.

    Venezuela coup linked to Bush team | World news | The Observer

    Democracy Now! | CIA Documents Show Bush Knew of 2002 Coup in Venezuela

    How many domestic news sources were admitting we were trying to overthrow - Manley (Jamaica), Castro, Cheddi (Guyana), Mossadedgh (Iran), Allende (Chile), Arbenz (Guatemala), Arosemana (Ecuador) Bosch (Dominican Republic), Papandreous (Greece), Torres (Bolivia), Velasco (Ecuador) and dozens of others - when it was actually occurring.

    MOST of the above succeeded, except Castro and Chavez and ALL of them are verifiable by desclassified documents today except for Chavez because it's too recent to have that information declassified. I think there is a 20 year rule before the information is released. A good thing too, because the majority of politically motivated folks - get too old and self interested 20 years after the fact; and are more focused on what school their kid is going to get accepted into.

    The next generation thinks, we don't do that kind of stuff anymore, not anymore. We're far more civilized now.
    Bush and the neocons would never do such a thing, no way.....
    Democracy Now! as objective foreign press?
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  4. #24
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    [QUOTE=meanlittlechimp;149266]"On the surface, it seems to Chavez
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  5. #25
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    RCTV has every right to do all of that (and more) under a free press. It's truly shocking that there are adults in the Western world who actually buy into the bullshit of people like Chavez. . . I'm very dismayed.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    RCTV has every right to do all of that (and more) under a free press. It's truly shocking that there are adults in the Western world who actually buy into the bullshit of people like Chavez. . . I'm very dismayed.
    What's bullshit exactly? The idea there was a coup attempt? or just his policies - i don't agree with his policies but there is more to the TV shutdown than I think you're aware of. Do you think RCTV is just a regular tv station trying to give impartial news when Chavez, had an overwhelming majority supporting him? Who do you think owns RCTV? you think it's an NGO or a non profit serving the public good?

    Are you saying all the other instances I named are not true? And we just stopped overthrowing legitimate governments when Bush came into office? Are you saying that the Bush administration would never attempt a coup? or just not publicly admit they did?

    You want to ignore the Guardian quote and just point out democracynow.org as an unreliable news source (you think dem.org forged the CIA documents they were leaked)? You just want to say Chavez is just a big liar and anyone who might think he's not lying, is just crazy? Only a nut job would believe we would overthrow a legitimate government for access to cheaper oil.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by meanlittlechimp View Post
    What's bullshit exactly? The idea there was a coup attempt? or just his policies - i don't agree with his policies but there is more to the TV shutdown than I think you're aware of. Do you think RCTV is just a regular tv station trying to give impartial news when Chavez, had an overwhelming majority supporting him? Who do you think owns RCTV? you think it's an NGO or a non profit serving the public good?

    Are you saying all the other instances I named are not true? And we just stopped overthrowing legitimate governments when Bush came into office? Are you saying that the Bush administration would never attempt a coup? or just not publicly admit they did?

    You want to ignore the Guardian quote and just point out democracynow.org as an unreliable news source (you think dem.org forged the CIA documents they were leaked)? You just want to say Chavez is just a big liar and anyone who might think he's not lying, is just crazy?
    Even if it isn't impartial, even if it's explicitly and virulently anti-Chavez, they have a right to broadcast their views to the public. It's not his decision to say otherwise, whether he is elected or takes over in a coup. It's their RIGHT. And, moreover, just because someone is elected doesn't make them a legitimate leader. Hitler won an election, too, and he was the most popular political figure in Germany in the 1930s. He was not very legitimate.

    And I am saying that, in THIS instance, we did not attempt to overthrow THIS dictator. I have no doubt that the majority of the Bush administration would have been glad to see it happen, but come on. Chavez lied about foiling another Washington-back coup attempt weeks later. The guy is a liar and he has every reason to accuse the United States of trying to overthrow/assassinate him because it wins him political points. It's awful. It makes me upset to agree with Bush on just anything, but being anti-Chavez is definitely an instance.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  8. #28
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    pm-

    you seem to be discounting news from other sources due to preconceived notions gained by what you read from the sources you prefer the most Not an uncommon problem really...
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    . Chavez lied about foiling another Washington-back coup attempt weeks later. The guy is a liar and he has every reason to accuse the United States of trying to overthrow/assassinate him because it wins him political points.
    Which coup are you speaking off? I lose track sometimes.

    Maybe Chavez did lie, but if you match up who is bigger liar (Chavez vs Bush), I'll have to go with Bush. If you ask, who tries harder to help the disenfranchised and raise livings standards for the majority of his own population (I'll take Chavez). If you ask me who is dumber (I'll take Bush).

    I consider Hitler to actually be legitimate, I use legitimate - as democratically elected or not propped by a foreign power at the expense of the majority of the population. Phillipines under Marcos, Chile under Pinochet, etc.


    I don't understand why you're so sure this wasn't cooked up by the Neocons. I'm not positive it was, but I would place it in the 80% probability for the following reasons:

    [] The US and especially the Neocons have a long history of this and as the Wolfowitz Papers in '92 clearly detail, their biggest foreign policy goal is to lock up oil, considering the dwindling finite supply and the exponentially increasing demand driven by Chinese and Indian growth rates (which I agree with, the neocons are not dumb, and turned out to be amazingly accurate since they predicted their growth rates between 8 and 10% annually).

    If they did orchestrate this, you think they would leave you a paper trail? You think Chris Dodd would be the one exposing them? This administration makes Nixon's look like a bunch of hippies - I don't even think Nixon would have outed Valerie Plame for political revenge; this elevated the neo-conservative right to an entirely new level of scum, whereas the christian right is mostly just ignorant and befuddled.

    [] A random businessman orchestrating a coup without US support in face of an overwhelmingly popular president seems unlikely.

    The US immediately recognized this new government, and if there wasn't such a popular uprising afterwards, they would have moved in and solidified his hold there (but in my opinion, they didn't predict such a vast and quick response and would have needed overt military action which wasn't politically expedient at the time.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    pm-

    you seem to be discounting news from other sources due to preconceived notions gained by what you read from the sources you prefer the most Not an uncommon problem really...
    No, I don't think so. I could cite Reason magazine as a source, but that would be the libertarian equivalent of citing Mother Jones. It is an ideological publication (despite having quite a spectrum within its staff), and Democracy Now! would fall into the same category. But AP, Reuters, the BBC, CNN, etc. I would find think would be useful in this context. The Economist and The Guardian are high-level British publications, but they also have their slants.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

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