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  1. #11
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    that's because you're more conservative and america-centric than I am!
    I hate fascism and socialism. Sorry! I'm big on the ol' liberal democracy/constitutional republic bandwagon. It's not "conservative" to say "Don't jail your political critics" or "Don't take broadcasting licenses away from independent news networks."
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  2. #12
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    yes- authoritarianism is bad- but we have it here as well- it's just sneakier

    and despite all of his definite problems (most leaders have them ) you have to admit that it takes some courage to stand up for your own country's interests internationally in the face of the United States

    I definitely prefer Lula da Silva and Michelle Bachelette as far as South American leaders go though

    and that's all I'm saying on this subject- not dragging it out into a pointless argument I have better things to do with my life!
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  3. #13
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    I take issue with "America-centric," too. I am actually very much into world politics, and I have traveled fairly extensively. I would consider a very cosmopolitan type of person. That's why I started the thread. It matters what happens in South America.
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  4. #14
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    yes- authoritarianism is bad- but we have it here as well- it's just sneakier

    and despite all of his definite problems (most leaders have them ) you have to admit that it takes some courage to stand up for your own country's interests internationally in the face of the United States

    I definitely prefer Lula da Silva and Michelle Bachelette as far as South American leaders go though

    and that's all I'm saying on this subject- not dragging it out into a pointless argument I have better things to do with my life!
    I disagree with those politicians, as well, but they are not out-and-out demagogues. And we certainly have authoritarian figures in the United States, too, on both the left and the right. I say throw all the bums out, here and abroad.

    And it's good to speak up when the U.S. is wrong, but when it's done just to score political points (and I think that is why he does it), it's empty.
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  5. #15
    The Unwieldy Clawed One Falcarius's Avatar
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    I don't see what the big deal is. Colombia committed an illegal aggressive act what disrespected another nation. Ecuador has every right to make sure it does not happen again by securing their borders with Colombia, and Venezuela has the right to support it's weaker ally against a more powerful enemy. I highly doubt it will lead to a war.

    I don't see it any different to the 'Litvinenko spat' Britain had with Russia, it is just tit for tat between Colombia and Ecuador/Venezuela, it will calm down in few months after a war of words, similar to what happened with Britain and Russia.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalassa View Post
    Oh our 3rd person reference to ourselves denotes nothing more than we realize we are epic characters on the forum.

    Narcissism, plain and simple.

  6. #16
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Falcarius View Post
    I don't see what the big deal is. Colombia committed an illegal aggressive act what disrespected another nation. Ecuador has every right to make sure it does not happen again by securing their borders, and Venezuela has the right to support it's weaker ally against a more powerful enemy. I highly doubt it will lead to a war.

    I don't see it any different to the 'Litvinenko spat' Britain had with Russia, it is just tit for tat between Colombia and Ecuador/Venezuela, it will calm down in few months after a war of words, similar to what happened with Britain and Russia.
    That's just the point; Colombia didn't attack the Ecuadorean nation-state, they bombed a FARC encampment. They aren't a "more powerful enemy" engaged in war with Ecuador and Venezuela. They have a low-intensity civil war going on that doesn't respect borders between countries. That's a very awkward position to be in. I don't think that such bombings are good form (and they should be held accountable for any Ecuadorean casualties), but what are the chances of Ecuador capturing the FARCistas and extraditing them to Colombia? I'd put it in the neighborhood of zero. I mean, should the United States have not gone to Afghanistan to try to capture Osama bin Laden? I am not big GWOT guy (I was against invading Iraq from the get-go), but we certainly had justification to try to capture terrorists who attacked our country. Just not justification to level an entire country, and that hasn't even come close to happening in this situation.
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  7. #17
    Senior Member 6sticks's Avatar
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    Even though Venezuela's reasoning for building up along the border is pretty ridiculous, this is probably just saber-rattling that will cool down eventually.

    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    that's because you're more conservative and america-centric than I am!
    No offense.

  8. #18
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 6sticks View Post
    Even though Venezuela's reasoning for building up along the border is pretty ridiculous, this is probably just saber-rattling that will cool down eventually.


    I hope so. So many people in South America are put-upon to begin with. A war would just ruin/end needlessly many lives.
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  9. #19

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    He's paranoid alright; but justifiably so - we did try to overthrow him a few times.. Not perfect but he actually cares about his people, unlike most of the viscous dictatorships we've set up in Latin America historically (that usually displaced democracies that were in place beforehand). I really think he would rule in a different less heavy handed way if he didn't have to deal with US interference in his country and the region through the last 100 years.

    The only way there is going to be war - is if the US backs and finances it. Which is a bit difficult considering the state of the US economy and the growing un-popularity of Iraq. Chavez can saber rattle because he knows the US won't do anything (which is the only thing that matters).

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by meanlittlechimp View Post
    He's paranoid alright; but justifiably so - we did try to overthrow him a few times.. Not perfect but he actually cares about his people, unlike most of the viscous dictatorships we've set up in Latin America historically (that usually displaced democracies that were in place beforehand). I really think he would rule in a different less heavy handed way if he didn't have to deal with US interference in his country and the region through the last 100 years.

    The only way there is going to be war - is if the US backs and finances it. Which is a bit difficult considering the state of the US economy and the growing un-popularity of Iraq. Chavez can saber rattle because he knows the US won't do anything (which is the only thing that matters).
    We didn't actually try to overthrow him ever. Chris Dodd called for an investigation into this possibility, and they determined that there was no U.S. military involvement in the coup in 2002. Of course, I don't doubt that Washington withheld the intelligence that a coup was in the works, nor do I think that they were unhappy about that fact, but we didn't do it. In the end, I don't feel bad for Chavez, as he is no stranger to taking power by coup d'etat. On the positive side, it looks as if elections are getting to be more transparent, and Chavez will be gone soon enough.
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