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  1. #71
    Starcrossed Seafarer Aquarelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    Western secularism has core values which are not necessarily shared by other cultures. For example, you might take it for granted that women are not inferior to men. You might think it's OK to criticize religions. You might think gays should not be punished. But those are not majority views in the world. If immigrants are allowed to isolate themselves and reinforce their homeland biases, the choices we take for granted could one day be eliminated by a simple vote.
    Thanks for the very condescending lesson. I was already well aware that other cultures have different views on gender equality, homosexuality, etc. I work in international education, so that is what I spend all day educating college students about.
    Masquerading as a normal person day after day is exhausting.

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  2. #72
    Starcrossed Seafarer Aquarelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    Perhaps you mean you disagree as opposed to saying I am "wrong"..??

    I do live in a country that is officially "Multicultural" .
    No, I mean you're wrong. Difference doesn't cause conflict - people's reactions to difference cause conflict. As Whatever pointed out, there are indeed many places in the world where people of different cultures get along just fine. I live in a multicultural country, too. It's not perfect, but I don't think things would be better if, for example, all Asians lived in Asia, Africans in Africa, Europeans in Europe, etc. You can hate someone from a distance just as easily - in fact more easily, sometimes - as you can face to face.

    Not to mention that it's just not practical in this day and age - multiculturalism is here to stay, so we need to figure out a way to make it work instead of debating whether it's good or bad. Holding onto the idea that multiculturalism is bad, that it causes conflict, racism, etc, prevents us from accepting it and figuring out how to get along with each other. It gives us an excuse not to do the hard work. And that is dangerous.
    Masquerading as a normal person day after day is exhausting.

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  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquarelle99 View Post
    No, I mean you're wrong. Difference doesn't cause conflict - people's reactions to difference cause conflict. As Whatever pointed out, there are indeed many places in the world where people of different cultures get along just fine. I live in a multicultural country, too. It's not perfect, but I don't think things would be better if, for example, all Asians lived in Asia, Africans in Africa, Europeans in Europe, etc. You can hate someone from a distance just as easily - in fact more easily, sometimes - as you can face to face.

    Not to mention that it's just not practical in this day and age - multiculturalism is here to stay, so we need to figure out a way to make it work instead of debating whether it's good or bad. Holding onto the idea that multiculturalism is bad, that it causes conflict, racism, etc, prevents us from accepting it and figuring out how to get along with each other. It gives us an excuse not to do the hard work. And that is dangerous.
    Because I like and respect you.. I offered you a chance to openly communicate with me. I am willing to listen to your ideas and give them an honest listen.
    I will disagree, but I will never say you are "wrong" .
    They don't mean the same thing at all, and one shows respect and the other doesn't.

    I feel dismissed by you and will not engage you in discussion if this is the response I can expect when we have different ideas..

    At this point you typed two paragraphs after the word "wrong".. I stopped there.
    You might have some good points to make.. too bad I wont read them

  4. #74
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Multiculturalism is an objective fact, there hasnt ever been a monoculture and I'd doubt its possible for there to be one, there's been more than one attempt by humanities twin big thought systems, ideology and religion, and where they havent achieved relative homogenuity, oppressing or wiping out diversity, it has generally be short lived with contestable benefits.

    Eventually fragmentation happens, with diversity and disparity resulting, it happened to Christendom, it happened to capitalism, it happened to socialism, liberalism, conservatism. In the US, in recent history and memory, the unopposed conservative consensus and hegemony resulted in diverse and culturally divergent conservatisms, neocons, theocons, libertaricons, fiscal cons, cultural cons and that's just he ones I can remember off hand.

    Its a different question altogether from whether or not acknowledging diversity and disparity as an objective fact necessarily means parity of esteem or equality between the different cultural scenes, there will be minorities and majorities, some will inevitably matter more than others (sexuality, parenting, work ethics, independence/dependence/interdependence are all examples of what I would consider important in comparison to taste in music, style of dress or consumer preferences) and they all will seek to reproduce themselves intergenerationally, spread or arrest each others spread.

  5. #75
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    Because I like and respect you.. I offered you a chance to openly communicate with me. I am willing to listen to your ideas and give them an honest listen.
    I will disagree, but I will never say you are "wrong" .
    They don't mean the same thing at all, and one shows respect and the other doesn't.

    I feel dismissed by you and will not engage you in discussion if this is the response I can expect when we have different ideas..

    At this point you typed two paragraphs after the word "wrong".. I stopped there.
    You might have some good points to make.. too bad I wont read them
    I'm getting a contrast between FJ and TJ here because I dont think that liking and respecting someone necessarily precludes judgements about right and wrong.

    There's people on this forum who I like and respect but I do think they are really, really wrong about certain topics. So long as they dont become hostile or dismissive of contra opinion, labelling it all bigotted, phobic or something else which is effectively just closing off and closing down discussion I'll go on liking and respecting them. I'll not tell them I think they are right or that I'm going to suspend judgement simply because I like them.

    I'd expect the same from them to be honest. I also suspect they'd be a lot less reticient about offering their own judgements anyway.

  6. #76
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    my neighbors on one side throw fiestas all summer long, complete with a live mariachi band a few times... I also got a great recipe for tortillas off of them
    I have Vietnamese, Mexican, Indian(As in India,) White, Black, Chinese neighbors....you name them.... I'll probably have a neighbor within walking distance and on this street in the suburbs.

    Sometimes I hear Indian and Mexican music along the way too!

  7. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by redScorpion View Post
    The Canadian and australian multiculturalism is pure neo-liberal propaganda. The residents never asked for it.
    Unless you're speaking of the Aboriginal population which is a small minority, Australia is a country founded on immigration, therefore by default the residents (Aborigines aside) did ask for it.

  8. #78
    Starcrossed Seafarer Aquarelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    Well TJ tends to dismiss others as wrong.. I like to agree to disagree.. it's more human and respectful.

    When someone declares themselves as an NFJ I tend to expect a certain level of awareness and sensitivity to others.
    Someone who declares how "exhausting it is" to "masquerade as normal person"
    I would think to be sensitive to being told their ideas are "wrong" simply because someone else doesn't agree with it.

    I find her reaction to be inconsistent with her declared values.
    Well, I'm sorry if you don't like my choice of words. It's obviously my opinion that you're wrong, so I guess I didn't need to spell it out, but if that's what you want, fine: I think you're wrong. Better?

    As for not taking the "opportunity" you gave me to revise my choice of words, I choose my words very carefully, so I didn't much appreciate that. I didn't say "I disagree," because I didn't mean "I disagree." I meant "I think you're wrong," though admittedly I thought the "I think" was implied, as I obviously can't prove it. I don't see that's against my "declared values." And I'm not a super strong F, so maybe I was using my TJ there; I don't much care. Most things, I can be pretty easygoing and flexible about, but there are a few things I have very strong opinions are and I do not tend to be flexible on those things, or shy away from debates on them, or mince words when I'm debating about them. That's pretty typical of INFJs if I understand correctly.... I know that you have a grudge against INFJs for some reason, but you don't know me, so please don't take that out on me over one choice of words.
    Masquerading as a normal person day after day is exhausting.

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  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquarelle99 View Post
    Well, I'm sorry if you don't like my choice of words. It's obviously my opinion that you're wrong, so I guess I didn't need to spell it out, but if that's what you want, fine: I think you're wrong. Better?

    As for not taking the "opportunity" you gave me to conform to how you wanted me to speak, I don't see that's against my "declared values." And I'm not a super strong F, so maybe I was using my TJ there; I don't much care. Most things, I can be pretty easygoing and flexible about, but there are a few things I have very strong opinions are and I do not tend to be flexible on those things, or shy away from debates on them, or mince words when I'm debating about them. That's pretty typical of INFJs if I understand correctly.... I know that you have a grudge against INFJs for some reason, but you don't know me, so please don't take that out on me over one choice of words.
    I have a grudge with inconsistency. It's glaring in many INFJs, what can I say? It's however way more glaring in ENT types.. and I let them know regularly.. I find it telling that no one suggests I have a grudge with ENTs for doing so.. Go figure.

    I also admit that dismissal is now the end of a conversation.
    My own personal history suggests this is a much better option for me than to get upset.

    I only expect that people have manners.. even if they disagree.. It says so much when someone is claiming to be on the side of humanity and morality and they don't even know how to communicate.
    They talk about a greater respect but can't display it in their quest to communicate this respect.

  10. #80
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Depends what kind of cultures we're talking about.

    For example, I think Japanese culture is deliciously bizzare. They can host their fucked up game shows in my back yard all they want.

    Religious fundamentalism (muslim, christian or whatever) fucking sucks and should be kept as far away from civilized societies as possible.
    Listen to me, baby, you got to understand, you're old enough to learn the makings of a man.

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