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  1. #21
    Senior Member knight's Avatar
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    possibly bad

    only concern is religious conflict, Hate, Violence that may arise from attachment to Values and beliefs that are not shared or practiced and people dying or throwing their lives away.

    possibly good or bad

    I think having a mixed community that may not share the same values gives people a chance to step out of the dogmatic beliefs systems without penalty like being killed, there is fluidity there and an exchange of ideas.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparrow View Post
    And what about America in general, the whole place is a melting pot.
    I don't think the melting pot concept is the same as multiculturalism.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #23
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Immigrants create healthy competition and keep our society sharp. They are absolutely necessary. Immigrants are hungrier than natural-born citizens. They have a stronger desire to rise out of poverty and often work harder than natural-born citizens. This, in turn, freaks those who are affluent out and makes them work harder to keep and protect what they have. In the end, the best man wins. Sometimes it's the old resident, and sometimes it's the new kid on the block. Overall, it keeps a capitalistic economy sharp.

  4. #24
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    Immigrants create healthy competition and keep our society sharp. They are absolutely necessary. Immigrants are hungrier than natural-born citizens. They have a stronger desire to rise out of poverty and often work harder than natural-born citizens. This, in turn, freaks those who are affluent out and makes them work harder to keep and protect what they have. In the end, the best man wins. Sometimes it's the old resident, and sometimes it's the new kid on the block. Overall, it keeps a capitalistic economy sharp.
    Like Lateralus said, this debate is not about immigration itself (though the OP seems to regard it as such); its really about differing conceptions of how immigration should be handled-the cross-assimilation melting pot and multi-cultural salad bowl are both intrinsically pro-immigration ideals. The United States and Canada are two immigration-driven nations that more or less embody competing ideals of how societies based on immigration deal with the dynamics involved, while the situation in most European countries is more complicated by their nation-state basis. There is also the issue of differing sources of immigration as it pertains to the first principles* that hold liberal democracies together; immigrant populations from cultures where freedom of religion and toleration (not to be confused with acceptance) of differing world-views is long-established (such as Mexico and the Phillipines) are less likely to cause problems in this regard than immigrant populations from areas where it isn't, such as north Africa and southwest Asia (and this is the point where I'm usually derided as an 'Islamaphobic' hate-monger). Its a complicated debate that is highly susceptible to misunderstandings, which makes clarifying one's definitions essential.

    *that would be the 'minimalist but essental' common ideals I referred to in my earlier post; it doesn't really matter if one considers them intrinsically true or just necessary for utilitarian purposes.

  5. #25
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Smile Multi-Culturalism and Liberal Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by redScorpion View Post

    After German Chancellor Angela Merkel last year, British P.M. said that "British multiculturalism has failed".

    I think multiculturalism is destroying Western identity, and that too many ethnic/religious minorities in one place can create ghettos, what do you think ?
    Yes, Britain and Germany are moving away from multi-culturalism and towards liberal democracy.

    Multi-culturalism is part of the Romantic reaction to the Enlightenment, and like many other Romantic reactions, it is inimical to liberal democracy.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Yes, Britain and Germany are moving away from multi-culturalism and towards liberal democracy.

    Multi-culturalism is part of the Romantic reaction to the Enlightenment, and like many other Romantic reactions, it is inimical to liberal democracy.
    Your first point Vic.. I can't speak for Germany , but having spent 6 and half years in the UK and as recently as June 2010, I can tell you that.. The UK is moving anywhere except towards liberal democracy. It's turning into a leftist Nanny State or Big Brother.

    Your second point is dead on the money

  7. #27
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    Are you talking about immigrants or nonwhite people, because those are different issues. I think you're talking about immigrants?
    This is an interesting statement. Just today someone mentioned to me a book that would indicate that for much of the early 20th century these were not separate issues.

    Working Toward Whiteness: How America's Immigrants Became White: The Strange Journey from Ellis Island to the Suburbs

    David R. Roediger... recounts how American ethnic groups considered white today-including Jewish-, Italian-, and Polish-Americans-once occupied a confused racial status in their new country. They eventually became part of white America thanks to the nascent labor movement, New Deal reforms, and a rise in home-buying. From ethnic slurs to racially restrictive covenants--the racist real estate agreements that ensured all-white neighborhoods--Roediger explores the murky realities of race in twentieth-century America.
    Take the weakest thing in you
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  8. #28
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    Immigrants create healthy competition and keep our society sharp. They are absolutely necessary. Immigrants are hungrier than natural-born citizens. They have a stronger desire to rise out of poverty and often work harder than natural-born citizens. This, in turn, freaks those who are affluent out and makes them work harder to keep and protect what they have. In the end, the best man wins. Sometimes it's the old resident, and sometimes it's the new kid on the block. Overall, it keeps a capitalistic economy sharp.
    I don't think this is how it works in ghettos, really...they mostly remain poor beacause whoever is already affluent can exploit their lack of education; in turn, the poor part of the resident population is impacted the most, since they're going to be the ones immigrants will compete against. That's why I think skilled and conscious immigration is positive (because it does promote some healthy competition), yet "illegal" immigration is generally negative.
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  9. #29
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    I don't think this is how it works in ghettos, really...they mostly remain poor beacause whoever is already affluent can exploit their lack of education; in turn, the poor part of the resident population is impacted the most, since they're going to be the ones immigrants will compete against. That's why I think skilled and conscious immigration is positive (because it does promote some healthy competition), yet "illegal" immigration is generally negative.
    Nations are attracted to skilled and educated professionals. This, I think we can say, is typical across cultures.

  10. #30
    Courage is immortality Valiant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    Nations are attracted to skilled and educated professionals. This, I think we can say, is typical across cultures.
    About that... Educated professionals tend not to be religious fanatics, violent criminals, thieves, wife abusers, terrorists or stuff like that.
    Well, maybe "terrorists", at times. That's a term I really don't like, "freedom fighters" are more like it in most (but not all) cases.

    Illegal immigrants can be anything, but refugees are often in a very desperate state of mind and often they have seen and/or done really horrible things that have left them damaged.
    PTSD and other nasty stuff coupled with coming to a foreign place where you stick out like a sore thumb and where people laugh at your religion...
    Go figure, it can turn out pretty bad, and it does, all over europe. African and middle eastern refugees in particular are having a real hard time coping here... And we have a problem with the clash as well.
    The problem is always mutual. It is in their background and in a way not their fault at all, and it is our fault because we don't put them into therapy and get them working straight away.
    Instead they get to move into wildly mixed ghettos where few people works, and where they can never assimilate into society. Some manage to survive, especially middle eastern people who become small business-owners.
    They have to go that way, because very few want to hire someone who can't talk properly. Over here we have around 400 000 to 500 000 unemployed Swedish citizens, in a nation of approximately 9 million...

    It's never a simple matter, and stuff tends to turn into a vicious circle.

    Mightier than the tread of marching armies is the power of an idea whose time has come

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