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  1. #11
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    I don't think you can say that it's good or bad. Different people are going to have different reactions to it, correlated with education, wealth, religion, and probably some other factors. I also think it's worth noting that the nations with the lowest crime rates are also among the most homogeneous in the world.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I also think it's worth noting that the nations with the lowest crime rates are also among the most homogeneous in the world.
    Very true, I think that a good country should have as less as possible ethnic/religious minorities to make it work. There should be a stable ethnocultural model that immigrants will conform to.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by redScorpion View Post
    Very true, I think that a good country should have as less as possible ethnic/religious minorities to make it work. There should be a stable ethnocultural model that immigrants will conform to.
    See this is also dangerous.. Nobody should have to "conform" to anything.
    A better way in my opinion .. Is to "adhere" to the social values already established..While maintaining respect for those who are different.

    Encouraging people to celebrate Diwali or Hanukkah should not come at the expense of those celebrating Christmas. Nor should Christmas be rammed down the throat of those who wish not to celebrate it..

    The problem is only that one group is told to change their ways while the others are encouraged to keep their ways..

    This is not multiculturalism.. It is the destruction of an already existing culture.

  4. #14
    Dependable Skeleton Engineer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    What do you think immigrants should be legally forced to do to avoid multiculturalism, then? Or should all the "western" countries just stop accepting all immigrants? What should be done about refugees? people married to Western citizens? How will you ensure that immigrants separate and mix in with "proper" people rather than their own people (if we are letting them in, of course)? What should you do when they want to organize a parade to celebrate a non-Christian holiday?

    (By the way, being a minority in no way implies that you're incapable of saying racist/bad things about other minorities. I've seen plenty of non-white people saying objectively racist things - towards other minorities. )
    Whoa there, calm down... That's a bit hyperbolic, wouldn't you admit? I don't think anyone has said that multiculturalism is bad. I believe the argument here is that forced multiculturalism (that is, the type of program where the culture of the majority is rampantly suppressed in favor of the promotion of the culture of other factions) is bad. I have absolutely no problem with my neighbors celebrating their personal holidays or traditions, as long as they respect my right to practice my own. However, when the government steps in and proclaims that my culture is offensive and off-putting to others, when it's not-- I certainly don't burn babies at the stake or make human sacrifices to the Mughalarek the God of Weather-- and says that I must stop practicing my traditions and "appreciate" theirs more, that's a problem. I'm all about freedom. If they want to organize a parade or celebrate, go for it! Just don't abridge the majority's right to do the same.
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  5. #15

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    I was going to post about this too.

    I guess my difference with Cameron is that I do not see multi-culturalism as a state mandated policy but as an objective reality, I certainly do not believe that mono-culturalism is an alternative or has succeeded where multiculturalism has failed.

    In many respects it is objectively very difficult to find a neighbourhood which would possess a single culture, the diversity of family cultures I suspect would be as numerous as the families residing there. In my experience it is. Even with respect to the norms and values which I would hope would be shared, such as parental responsibility or styles of parenting.

    Cameron's main criticism of multi-culturalism is that it has lead to segregation, or so it appears to me, and segregation is problematic because within those segregated communities there are hostile mono-cultures.

    The problem of terrorism and extremism which is linked to this segregation and political islam is an interesting one. To me, it seems the problem with political islam is that it aims at a mono-culture, the eradication of diversity or disparity of thinking among believers, and then the imposition of this condition on others also. Without the religious element that's totalitarianism.

    I agree that there ought to be a shared framework within which diversity or disparity can be kept within manageable limits, whether conflict or consensus is going to predominate there is still going to be diversity and disparity, I just see that as a consequence of our individual existence and as I've gotten older I doubt the benefits of homogenuity, too often it amounts to something resembling the Borg in Star Trek.

    In countries like the UK I tend to think that the law and seperation of religious and public-political authority suffice for that framework, I dont know what common identity Cameron wants or could dream up, most of the attempts to conceptualise Britishness which I'm familiar with, such as Orwell's or Bernard Crick's, are dated as soon as they are drafted. In fact some of the citizenship concepts or ideas are highly contradictory, for one residents of the UK are strictly speaking subjects, not citizens. The history of the country's various attempts to define britishness and its attendent religious wars and ideological struggles isnt even uncontested, bitter sectarianism and murder lingers on in some parts of the UK among Christians let alone Christians and others.

    What I do think is that the secular, athiest, cynical, modern culture which prevails and predominates isnt supported or I suspect supportable, it actively alienates people, now how that alienation gets channelled is a fair question but its not a new one, intergenerational struggles, minority-majority relations, subcultures etc. have been around for a long time, surely there's plenty food for thought to be had. Personally the big dilemmas I think revolve around what lends itself to an open society or open mindness (an open mind isnt an uncritical or unconditionally supportive one though), most of the tendencies which lend themselves to being closed off dont recognise themselves as being such but in doing so they are likely to spur segregation, people decide that if they are going to be shunned and rejected completely then they will do likewise.

    If you were to take this forum even as a microcosm of society there are different cultures present here, there's a framework accepted by those who participate as members of the forum and anyone who doesnt accept it either doesnt participate or is reprimanded in the form of the forum rules but the different cultures exist all the same. I do think that some people can handle that better than others, while I'm pretty sure that some people would prefer that their culture were the only one, their values treated as objective and everyone else exposed as irrational and wicked. As with the forum, as with life.

    Rather than culture I think migraion and refugee or asylum seeking are problems for the UK, if you accept someone who is fleeing violence, intimidation and execution or torture elsewhere its a good idea to examine why, perhaps they are fleeing brutal regimes but have been forced to do so because they have been attempting to subvert it with an equally brutal ideology which they havent abandoned.

  6. #16
    Courage is immortality Valiant's Avatar
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    Multiculturalism can be good. And it can be bad... No easy answer to that one.
    Personally, I have experienced no major problems with the difference between western cultures.
    With eastern european, middle eastern and african cultures though... That's another matter.
    East-asian cultures and western culture seem to be compatible, in most cases, as well.

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  7. #17
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Engineer View Post
    Whoa there, calm down... That's a bit hyperbolic, wouldn't you admit? I don't think anyone has said that multiculturalism is bad. I believe the argument here is that forced multiculturalism (that is, the type of program where the culture of the majority is rampantly suppressed in favor of the promotion of the culture of other factions) is bad. I have absolutely no problem with my neighbors celebrating their personal holidays or traditions, as long as they respect my right to practice my own. However, when the government steps in and proclaims that my culture is offensive and off-putting to others, when it's not-- I certainly don't burn babies at the stake or make human sacrifices to the Mughalarek the God of Weather-- and says that I must stop practicing my traditions and "appreciate" theirs more, that's a problem. I'm all about freedom. If they want to organize a parade or celebrate, go for it! Just don't abridge the majority's right to do the same.
    The op stated that "multiculturalism is destroying Western identity" which sure sounds like "multiculturalism is bad" to me.

    I'm just replying to the OP, and the title. It says nothing about whether the multiculturalism is forced or not, but proposes the question of whether multiculturalism is intrinsically bad. I believe most people would agree that forcing any given thing is usually a bad idea (depending what "forced" means in real life).
    -end of thread-

  8. #18
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    A better way in my opinion .. Is to "adhere" to the social values already established..While maintaining respect for those who are different.

    Encouraging people to celebrate Diwali or Hanukkah should not come at the expense of those celebrating Christmas. Nor should Christmas be rammed down the throat of those who wish not to celebrate it..
    I agree with this (at least for the vaguely "good" social values). I think this version of multiculturalism is very possible (and even happens in real life, sometimes).
    -end of thread-

  9. #19
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    I'm a huge advocate of culturally celebrating the 'melting pot' or cross-assimilation ideal, which should be understood not as forced assimilation but rather growing together into a common identity group held together through common allegiance and (minimalist but crucial) ideals, constantly rejuvinated with new blood. The celebration of 'multiculturalism' is detrimental to society, especially when combined with deliberate government policies promoting the same. Basically, the culture of immigrants should be viewed as a contributing aspect of their descendant's identity rather than celebrated as the basis of a permanent separate identity that is distinct from and unconnected to the national experience.
    Last edited by lowtech redneck; 02-05-2011 at 06:10 PM. Reason: more to add

  10. #20
    Senior Member Sparrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redScorpion View Post

    After German Chancellor Angela Merkel last year, British P.M. said that "British multiculturalism has failed".

    I think multiculturalism is destroying Western identity, and that too many ethnic/religious minorities in one place can create ghettos, what do you think ?
    Sounds prejudiced and racist to me...not all ethnic communities turn in to ghettos! There are large Korean communities here is Washington that arent ghetto at all! And what about America in general, the whole place is a melting pot.
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