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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    And you see, that's the exact perspective that's trying to be refocused. A childish perspective says that not being rewarded for complying with a behavioral standard is punishment. An adult perspective understands that no one owes you anything, beyond the basic considerations of life.
    That comes into effect when a child is old enough to start being rational, the the whys and wherefores are understandable. Until then, even into verbal development kids are essentially sociopaths.

  2. #122
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    If there are no orders, then there are no consequences because nothing is ever expected of the child.
    Requests with consequences for noncompliance. Give and take.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlippoth View Post
    That comes into effect when a child is old enough to start being rational, the the whys and wherefores are understandable. Until then, even into verbal development kids are essentially sociopaths.
    At that point, they generally don't need much parental control other than to keep them out of danger (which is a big enough job as it is), and to interact with them in a positive manner. You can't punish a kid for being bad when all they are is amoral.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    At that point, they generally don't need much parental control other than to keep them out of danger (which is a big enough job as it is), and to interact with them in a positive manner. You can't punish a kid for being bad when all they are is amoral.
    No, you shouldn't punish a kid for being amoral. But you should deter a kid from being damaging, and you should begin to instill (program) things like patience, and yes.. I will say it, obedience to authority. Children need to be able to learn to unquestioningly take commands in the early years, for their own safety and possibly legal and financial reasons.

  5. #125
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Requests with consequences for noncompliance. Give and take.
    Huh? That sounds like "orders", to me. You're just giving it a different name.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by dala View Post
    In this context, parent is actually referring to one of four main parenting styles, in which conformity and compliance are expected and the child is generally given little context or free reign with which to form their own opinions and beliefs. In this sort of environment, it is difficult for a child to learn how to take initiative or make choices without guidance.
    Authoritative, authoritarian, indulgent and neglectful.

    NT, SJ, NF, and SP.

    :P

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    Authoritative, authoritarian, indulgent and neglectful.

    NT, SJ, NF, and SP.

    :P
    Which MBTI type is better, again?

  8. #128
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlippoth View Post
    No, you shouldn't punish a kid for being amoral. But you should deter a kid from being damaging, and you should begin to instill (program) things like patience, and yes.. I will say it, obedience to authority. Children need to be able to learn to unquestioningly take commands in the early years, for their own safety and possibly legal and financial reasons.
    What's the point of deterrence when they don't even know what they're doing wrong?

    Obedience to authority arises when the authority deserves to be obeyed, through loving and caring behavior. If I'm a parent, I want my children to learn to differentiate between legitimate and illegitimate authority, and not be afraid to challenge the latter. Life may not be fair, but that doesn't mean you have to accept it unflinchingly.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Huh? That sounds like "orders", to me. You're just giving it a different name.
    Nope. Orders carry an implied threat. Requests are nonthreatening, and it's up to the child to figure out that A -> B, with a little coaching from the parent.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    What's the point of deterrence when they don't even know what they're doing wrong?

    Obedience to authority arises when the authority deserves to be obeyed, through loving and caring behavior. If I'm a parent, I want my children to learn to differentiate between legitimate and illegitimate authority, and not be afraid to challenge the latter. Life may not be fair, but that doesn't mean you have to accept it unflinchingly.
    The differentiation comes later, when they're capable of understanding. Your vision is lovely, but impractical. If you want to realize an ideal, you have to work with the medium.. humans come out needing a lot of work and the environs are always less than ideal.

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