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  1. #111

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    The sensation of burning alone isnt abusive, I remember my dad giving me curry when I was younger which was too hot for me and I didnt like it but it wasnt abusive, its the use of it in a punitive manner and the whole context of punishment which is abusive or potentially abusive.

    Like I say if you wouldnt or couldnt use it in the context of adults, say soldiers and POWs then why is it alright with children? 9 times out of 10 its going to be an abuse of power and about the adults needs not the child's needs, which yeah includ discipline and boundaries but not victimisation.

  2. #112
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    We seem to be talking past each other, because I was saying the same thing. I don't really get why you think I was saying otherwise (the stricter punishment for lying would already be known to the child); that's part of what I meant by 'consistent socialization'.
    Maybe we are. The difference in styles, to me, is that the authoritarian style enforces rules by imposing punishment, while the authoritative style enforces through the removal of future benefits. In other words, I don't think that it's appropriate to exploit the fear of loss or harm as a means of social control. Instead, it's better to exploit the child's desire for future benefit.

    In essence:
    Authoritative: "If you do good, you'll get good things. Here's rules on how you can be good. If you follow all the rules, I'll give you something nice as a result. If you don't follow the rules, then you won't be getting nice things from me."
    Authoritarian: "If you do bad, I'll punish you. If you do these things, you're a bad child. If you don't do these things, then I won't punish you. If you do these things, you can expect punishment for being a bad child."

    Authoritative governs through "dos". Authoritarian governs through "do nots".

  3. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Maybe we are. The difference in styles, to me, is that the authoritarian style enforces rules by imposing punishment, while the authoritative style enforces through the removal of future benefits. In other words, I don't think that it's appropriate to exploit the fear of loss or harm as a means of social control. Instead, it's better to exploit the child's desire for future benefit.

    In essence:
    Authoritative: "If you do good, you'll get good things. Here's rules on how you can be good. If you follow all the rules, I'll give you something nice as a result. If you don't follow the rules, then you won't be getting nice things from me."
    Authoritarian: "If you do bad, I'll punish you. If you do these things, you're a bad child. If you don't do these things, then I won't punish you. If you do these things, you can expect punishment for being a bad child."

    Authoritative governs through "dos". Authoritarian governs through "do nots".
    Hmm, I don't know about that. What I took away from it was that Authoritarian was: "Do it because you're supposed to exactly as I say." And Authorative is: "Here's why you shouldn't do this." There's punishement in either case, but the lesson to take away from each type is completely different.

    With Authoritarian parenting, the child feels inadequate if he or she can't conform to their parents expectations. With Authorative, ideally the child will learn why it's important to do things in certain ways, there is reason.

  4. #114
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    I think there might be some terminology confusion. Think of a situation where a child wants candy while shopping with their parent and starts whining when they don't get it:

    Authoritarian: Stop whining or I'll smack you
    Authoritative: Whining isn't an appropriate way to get what you want. Try asking calmly.
    Permissive: *buys candy*

    In the long term, if these methods are consistently reinforced, you will have different outcomes. The child of an authoritarian parent may stop whining immediately, but they do it because they will be punished if they do not, not because it is inappropriate. The child of an authoritative parent may stop immediately, or they may need repeated reinforcement until they get it, but in the end they learn what behaviour is appropriate rather than just what is not. As a bonus, they get what they want more often because they know how to communicate effectively with their parent. The child of the permissive parent is the spoiled brat people keep talking about. This is just pure laziness on the parent's part.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dala View Post
    I think there might be some terminology confusion. Think of a situation where a child wants candy while shopping with their parent and starts whining when they don't get it:

    Authoritarian: Stop whining or I'll smack you
    Authoritative: Whining isn't an appropriate way to get what you want. Try asking calmly.
    Permissive: *buys candy*

    In the long term, if these methods are consistently reinforced, you will have different outcomes. The child of an authoritarian parent may stop whining immediately, but they do it because they will be punished if they do not, not because it is inappropriate. The child of an authoritative parent may stop immediately, or they may need repeated reinforcement until they get it, but in the end they learn what behaviour is appropriate rather than just what is not. As a bonus, they get what they want more often because they know how to communicate effectively with their parent. The child of the permissive parent is the spoiled brat people keep talking about. This is just pure laziness on the parent's part.
    It's a good example.. but the child also learns nothing unless she runs into a situation when she can't have what she wants, even if she asks nicely. Otherwise, she'll think that people are just candy machines that need to be activated properly. And, most likely the first time she runs into this, there will probably be disciplinary action involved. Kids aren't rational at certain ages and will not take a reasonable explanation, and will throw fits. This is where an Authorative explanation and some good corner time come into play.

  6. #116
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlippoth View Post
    It's a good example.. but the child also learns nothing unless she runs into a situation when she can't have what she wants, even if she asks nicely. Otherwise, she'll think that people are just candy machines that need to be activated properly. And, most likely the first time she runs into this, there will probably be disciplinary action involved. Kids aren't rational at certain ages and will not take a reasonable explanation, and will throw fits. This is where an Authorative explanation and some good corner time come into play.
    Temporary isolation isn't punishment, per se, when it's used to allow the child to calm him/herself. I think, too, a lot of the disagreement comes from whether or not you consider withholding bonuses as punishment of some sort. I don't, personally.

  7. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlippoth View Post
    It's a good example.. but the child also learns nothing unless she runs into a situation when she can't have what she wants, even if she asks nicely. Otherwise, she'll think that people are just candy machines that need to be activated properly. And, most likely the first time she runs into this, there will probably be disciplinary action involved. Kids aren't rational at certain ages and will not take a reasonable explanation, and will throw fits. This is where an Authorative explanation and some good corner time come into play.
    My example was intended to be only a basic description of each philosophy. Undoubtedly there would be further hurdles in the whining scenario, each of which, again, could be handled any of those three ways. Personally, I suspect that an authoritative parent could handle this by being consistent and removing the child from the situation when they get out of hand. I don't see how punishment without understanding can result in anything but momentary compliance.

    That being said, I doubt that it is possible to actually raise a child following a pure philosophy. People aren't that perfect. However, there are some combinations what will result in better outcomes and some that will result in worse ones. For example, imagine the anxiety and doubt in a child whose parent is permissive 80% of the time and authoritative 20%. They would lack both the self-control to curb their behavior and the understanding and maturity to find a better way to act.

  8. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Temporary isolation isn't punishment, per se, when it's used to allow the child to calm him/herself. I think, too, a lot of the disagreement comes from whether or not you consider withholding bonuses as punishment of some sort. I don't, personally.
    This is where it's all about semantics. Any withholding, in my assessment is a punishment. The child definitely thinks it is, and withholding their daily juicebox and giving them water is unpleasant. Negative influence. They don't percieve what they should have as a 'bonus', the parents do to make themselves feel better. Withholding of freedom and company is the same thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlippoth View Post
    This is where it's all about semantics. Any withholding, in my assessment is a punishment. The child definitely thinks it is, and withholding their daily juicebox and giving them water is unpleasant. Negative influence. They don't percieve what they should have as a 'bonus', the parents do to make themselves feel better. Withholding of freedom and company is the same thing.
    And you see, that's the exact perspective that's trying to be refocused. A childish perspective says that not being rewarded for complying with a behavioral standard is punishment. An adult perspective understands that no one owes you anything, beyond the basic considerations of life.

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    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    You can train someone to do something through fear of reprisal. You can train someone to do something well by making them enjoy working well for you.

    I also absolutely disagree with your assertion that social functionality must be instilled. Provided enough contact with peers and adults, most children instinctively take to social interaction (part of humans being social animals). It's not when parents are fairly permissive that it's a problem; it's when they're fairly permissive, but shield their children from the consequences of their actions. In my mind, parents need to provide emotional support and stability, but that means support to face the consequences, instead of avoiding them.

    The problem I have with the authoritarian model is that it establishes the parent-child relationship as one of domination and submission. That works when the child has a submissive personality, but likely leads to a bunch of unnecessary conflict when the child has a more dominant personality.
    If there are no orders, then there are no consequences because nothing is ever expected of the child.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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