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  1. #101
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Without any orders...I don't believe that at all. Being functional in our society is not a default state for humans. We all have to be trained, one way or another, and that necessarily requires orders.
    You can train someone to do something through fear of reprisal. You can train someone to do something well by making them enjoy working well for you.

    I also absolutely disagree with your assertion that social functionality must be instilled. Provided enough contact with peers and adults, most children instinctively take to social interaction (part of humans being social animals). It's not when parents are fairly permissive that it's a problem; it's when they're fairly permissive, but shield their children from the consequences of their actions. In my mind, parents need to provide emotional support and stability, but that means support to face the consequences, instead of avoiding them.

    The problem I have with the authoritarian model is that it establishes the parent-child relationship as one of domination and submission. That works when the child has a submissive personality, but likely leads to a bunch of unnecessary conflict when the child has a more dominant personality.

  2. #102
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    ^^^
    This sounds reasonable. I did some digging around on terms, and the most accepted is the Authorative model, not Permissive or Authoritarian. Parenting is an obviously contentious subject, and there's plenty of spectrum between parenting styles. I was spanked as a child, but I would desribe my father's style as definitely Authorative, and maybe this isn't why I'm not resentful towards it.

  3. #103
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Any parenting style that centers around compliance with commands is by definition an authoritarian one. Some parents manage to raise respectful children without needing to give orders at all.

    You're also mistaken about parental styles not being analogous to political systems. Most political scientists agree that the parental style we grew up with will always be the power structure we compare other ones to. What dictator hasn't thought of himself as the pater patriae?
    Then so be it; I'll continue to support parenting styles that does not produce self-absorbed brats.

    Funny how none of my professors, and none of the hundreds of articles I've read on the subject of politcal science, seem to have mentioned this. Ault political systems are not analogous to parent-child relationships because children are not little adults who begin with a knowledge base, capacity for rational thought, and the norms and values necessary to interact with others on an equal basis.

  4. #104
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    I just remember my own childhood, being raised in that style, and the resentment it built.
    This would explain a lot...you are going too far in the other direction, dude.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlippoth View Post
    ^^^
    This sounds reasonable. I did some digging around on terms, and the most accepted is the Authorative model, not Permissive or Authoritarian. Parenting is an obviously contentious subject, and there's plenty of spectrum between parenting styles. I was spanked as a child, but I would desribe my father's style as definitely Authorative, and maybe this isn't why I'm not resentful towards it.
    I hear ya. I think we got caught up on the word "order". To me, "order" means "Do this, or I will hurt you." That's how a bully operates, isn't it? That's much different than a request with consequences, which means "Please do this for me, but if you don't, I won't do this for you."

    The reason the latter is authoritative is not the style of command, but the natural power and resource imbalance between parent and child. The parent is in control of the things the child wants, so noncompliance thwarts the child's desires on a very broad scale (as opposed to the authoritative model, which only thwarts one desire - the desire to be free from injury and punishment). Eventually, the carrots will become fewer and fewer, since as the child matures, it becomes parental approval that they want the most. That's how you build a healthy superego.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Then so be it; I'll continue to support parenting styles that does not produce self-absorbed brats.

    Funny how none of my professors, and none of the hundreds of articles I've read on the subject of politcal science, seem to have mentioned this. Ault political systems are not analogous to parent-child relationships because children are not little adults who begin with a knowledge base, capacity for rational thought, and the norms and values necessary to interact with others on an equal basis.
    Neither are most adults. Forgot about that side of the equation, didn't ya?

  7. #107
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Neither are most adults. Forgot about that side of the equation, didn't ya?
    Nope, I just disagree with you. Our perceptions seem to be mirror-images; maximalist freedom versus paternalism for children and adults are switched around.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    This would explain a lot...you are going too far in the other direction, dude.
    Have you read any of my other posts on this thread? I said upthread that my ideal parental style would involve many rules, with strict enforcement and regular consequences. The difference is that the consequence would arise as a predictable effect (same infractions bring the same class of consequences) of breaking the rule, and not because I as parent want to punish the child (because far too often, it's more about venting anger at the child's expense than it is about enforcing the rule). The point would be to have the children recognize that when they break a rule, they're making a choice to accept the consequences, and that they're ultimately responsible for their actions.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Nope, I just disagree with you. Our perceptions seem to be mirror-images; maximalist freedom versus paternalism for children and adults are switched around.
    Hmmm... don't see it that way, unsurprisingly. Far too black and white for my tastes. It's more that providing children with a model of respectful, loving authority when they are young does far more to positively influence their relationship with authority as adults, than does a model of a vengeful, bullying authority you must cow to out of weakness. The former teaches them as adults to exercise their freedom responsibly, and accept the consequences of that freedom. The latter breeds authoritarian structures, because it's the only thing these people have known, and they have neither the tools nor desire to develop self-regulation.

  10. #110
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Have you read any of my other posts on this thread? I said upthread that my ideal parental style would involve many rules, with strict enforcement and regular consequences. The difference is that the consequence would arise as a predictable effect (same infractions bring the same class of consequences) of breaking the rule, and not because I as parent want to punish the child (because far too often, it's more about venting anger at the child's expense than it is about enforcing the rule). The point would be to have the children recognize that when they break a rule, they're making a choice to accept the consequences, and that they're ultimately responsible for their actions.
    We seem to be talking past each other, because I was saying the same thing. I don't really get why you think I was saying otherwise (the stricter punishment for lying would already be known to the child); that's part of what I meant by 'consistent socialization'.

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