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  1. #41
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    The Philadelphia doctor is legitimately horrifying and newsworthy.

    PP is one of the best ways for a young woman to get affordable birth control, so it probably prevents many more abortions than it provides. I don't really understand why people are so anti-PP.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  2. #42
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    The Philadelphia doctor is legitimately horrifying and newsworthy.

    PP is one of the best ways for a young woman to get affordable birth control, so it probably prevents many more abortions than it provides. I don't really understand why people are so anti-PP.
    Are you serious?
    You don't understand?
    If I think they commit murder why would my opinion of them change if they also prevent some murder?
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  3. #43
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    Are you serious?
    You don't understand?
    If I think they commit murder why would my opinion of them change if they also prevent some murder?
    Regardless of your beliefs, abortion is legal. Murder is not. They provide a legal service (incidentally, one that would take place whether it's legal or not). They also provide other legal services that reduce the total abortions (legal or illegal) provided. Like it or not, if PP goes away, the abortion rate will most likely rise. I certainly understand that some people are against abortion, but that's roughly 3% of what PP does, and the other 97% is stuff I can't see how anyone would want to take away.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  4. #44
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Regardless of your beliefs, abortion is legal. Murder is not. They provide a legal service (incidentally, one that would take place whether it's legal or not). They also provide other legal services that reduce the total abortions (legal or illegal) provided. Like it or not, if PP goes away, the abortion rate will most likely rise. I certainly understand that some people are against abortion, but that's roughly 3% of what PP does, and the other 97% is stuff I can't see how anyone would want to take away.
    Some of this may be true. But, when it comes to human life I like to stick to principles and not pragmatics.

    The incontrovertible fact is that abortion is the killing of a defenseless human being.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  5. #45
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    If men kept their johnson in their pants, there wouldn't be any abortion. Problem solved.

  6. #46
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    The Philadelphia doctor is legitimately horrifying and newsworthy.

    PP is one of the best ways for a young woman to get affordable birth control, so it probably prevents many more abortions than it provides. I don't really understand why people are so anti-PP.
    I think lots of people are ignorant of what PP actually does, and for many pro-lifers being associated with abortion in any way automatically makes you evil.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #47
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    That would be roughly analogous to someone going to pro-life events and talking about murdering abortion doctors until they found somebody who wanted to join them.
    If approximately two out of twelve high-level members of pro-life organizations* were found to be responsive to covering up the murder of abortion doctors, I would actually find that quite newsworthy, though I would also expect news organizations to emphasize the unscientific and potentially unrepresentative nature of such an expose, as well as the bias of any organization that released the information.

    *I think that's roughly the proportion of PP managers who fell for this, but I'm not sure; I know the PP's in two locales fell for it, but I'm not sure I correctly remember the number of clinics targeted.

  8. #48
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    I just came across this thoughtful article on the ethics of Live Action. While I still believe that this matter is newsworthy I now feel a bit ashamed for not being willing to criticize the sting itself.

    http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2011/02/2529

    The pro-life movement is at an advantage over its pro-choice opposition in the struggle over the value of unborn human life for two simple reasons: truth and love.

    Truth, because the pro-life movement is founded on a set of scientific facts about unborn human beings.
    ...

    Love, because the pro-life movement is founded on an ethical claim: that all human beings are deserving of the same fundamental form of respect.
    ...

    Even those who recognize these facts about the pro-life movement might be hesitant to state their corollary: that the so-called pro-choice movement is premised on a lie and—despite the unquestioned good intentions of its members and supporters— is opposed to love.
    ...

    Yet for all the good that may come of these videos, the way in which Live Action has made its mark is itself extremely troubling, for it is predicated on a form of falsity, which is exercised in an unloving way. Promising and welcome as the effects of these videos might be, they represent a real and dangerous corruption of the pro-life movement itself by endangering the pro-life movement’s commitment to its ideals of love and truth.
    ...

    The “pimp,” rather, lied, repeatedly and pervasively, in his conversation with the Planned Parenthood worker: he presented himself as other than he truly was, and his purpose in doing so was clearly to deceive.

    In so presenting himself, the “pimp,” and all those who abetted him, did damage to his own integrity, creating for himself an appearance in the world deliberately at odds with his inner self. But integrity—a unity of one’s acting self in all its aspects—is a great good, and we destroy that unity in a lie only at a great cost to our wellbeing (this cost is recognized in feelings of guilt and in our attempts to ensure that we do not present a false face to the world).

    Of course, the makers of the Live Action video could argue that the end—the good sought—justified a morally problematic means. But such a form of argument is a centerpiece of those arguments for abortion which acknowledge the “special respect and value” owed the unborn child, but which still justify his or her destruction for the sake of the consequences. “Do no evil that good may come about” should be central to the pro-life movement’s ethos.

    Nor can it be said that Live Action’s behavior towards the Planned Parenthood workers was loving. Under most circumstances, to speak the truth to another just is a demand of love. But under all circumstances, to seek to deceive is to create a relationship with another based on falsity, and this seems inevitably to be unloving.
    ...

    So, while the increased scrutiny of Planned Parenthood is a good thing, and will conceivably lead to the even greater good of a general defunding of this morally bankrupt organization, I can take no joy in Live Action’s approach. They seem to have “fought fire with fire,” combating deceit and lack of charity with more of the same. The pro-life movement must be better than that, always, and it must be willing to engage in self-criticism when it fails to meet its own exacting standards.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  9. #49
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    I have a few questions.
    1. Why fourteen and under? That seems like a rather arbritary cut off point to me.
    2. Is planned parenthood like family planning? Aren't people treated as effectively anomously in these places?
    It was a very suss "meeting". Alarm bells would be ringing in my head. The girls come in individually, some times with the pimp, but they get seen seperately. (I worked in a family planning clinic, as a lab tech, that situation would have all the case workers talking, and yes, I would have reported him because it wasn't a genuine inquiry.)
    The only thing I have to say, about the case worker in the vid, is we don't know her motives....she could have been trying to make the "pimp" comfortable about bringing his girls around, so she could see proof. Seriously, they just don't come off the street like that.
    Also, a kid of 14/15 with chlymadia, or syphillis is going to raise alarm bells, no matter wether the case worker reports the pimp or not. Positive results have to be reported to disease control. They are going to investigate. They are going suspect sexual abuse and/or under age prostitution. Technically the case worker had nothing to lose. Pregnancy &/or STD looks suspcious at that age.
    The only truly questionable thing was the question of kick backs, and I have admitt tthe answer was shady.
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
    Real life awaits and she is a demanding mistress.

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  10. #50
    Senior Member knight's Avatar
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    pro lifers are liars

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