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  1. #11
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf View Post
    What about the extra cost of compulsory education? I pay more in taxes than people that are popping out kids, and a good portion of that is educating said unneeded children.
    Would you prefer living in a (more) uneducated populus?

    A high quality public education benefits everyone. Or, it would, if it were more widely available.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Alienclock's Avatar
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    What does a high quality public education look like?

    I think that public education does benefit everyone too. After all, it is basically how we learn to be a decent human being, and also they give us knowledge that we use every single day of our lives. And if you think about it, without it we would not be able to do our jobs effectively. The classes and lessons you learn that do not have a clear applicability in RL are not just there to earn the school extra money by keeping you in class longer.. They are enrichment, and although we may never realize we use those skills on the job, or in life, we do. They teach us how to sit still, how to be patient, how to behave in a group as a group, how to relinquish our identity to the group, they teach us to speak only at certain times, they teach us how to tolerate repetitive actions that do not have any clear benefit, and those are many of the skills we DO need as employees. They also teach us to know our place, and not challenge the usefulness of things, they feed us, socialize us, and let us know that they have their best interests in mind. So they teach us to trust the institution, and to sacrifice our natural instincts so we can learn to be productive members of society, ie employees.

    So in other words, public education is beneficial. It has created the trusting complacent apathetic society that we currently enjoy. Hmmm, before public education, what did kids do all day? How did they learn? And most of all, how did they learn to FIT IN? Who did they work for?

  3. #13
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alienclock View Post
    What does a high quality public education look like?

    I think that public education does benefit everyone too. After all, it is basically how we learn to be a decent human being, and also they give us knowledge that we use every single day of our lives. And if you think about it, without it we would not be able to do our jobs effectively. The classes and lessons you learn that do not have a clear applicability in RL are not just there to earn the school extra money by keeping you in class longer.. They are enrichment, and although we may never realize we use those skills on the job, or in life, we do. They teach us how to sit still, how to be patient, how to behave in a group as a group, how to relinquish our identity to the group, they teach us to speak only at certain times, they teach us how to tolerate repetitive actions that do not have any clear benefit, and those are many of the skills we DO need as employees. They also teach us to know our place, and not challenge the usefulness of things, they feed us, socialize us, and let us know that they have their best interests in mind. So they teach us to trust the institution, and to sacrifice our natural instincts so we can learn to be productive members of society, ie employees.

    So in other words, public education is beneficial. It has created the trusting complacent apathetic society that we currently enjoy. Hmmm, before public education, what did kids do all day? How did they learn? And most of all, how did they learn to FIT IN? Who did they work for?
    Thanks for missing my point entirely.

  4. #14
    Senior Member Alienclock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Thanks for missing my point entirely.
    Sorry. or umm... you are welcome.
    I think your point is that it is better to be educated than uneducated. And an educated environment is better than an uneducated one. And that paying the tax cost of that is well worth it. Even if you don't want too...

    I don't feel that public education serves the publics best interests. I do feel however, that keeping the animals off the streets and and keeping them in public school is better than letting them run free. Imagine the rise in crime. What if their mothers had to stop working to watch them? They would work less...
    Yep, and then rise in pollution, if those kids, or their moms are then allowed to reproduce.

    Thank you for quoting me, it makes me feel special. I am not kidding, it does. You noticed me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf View Post
    What about the extra cost of compulsory education? I pay more in taxes than people that are popping out kids, and a good portion of that is educating said unneeded children.
    I gotta ask this, who determines if a child is unneeded... Thats sort of a good question. Maybe society, college professors, and the government should determine whether someone s kids are needed. Who cares if business has a vested interest and contributes to government and college... Actually I would imagine that business would like a larger population, I guess these measures are less population control, and more smoke screen to hide whats really causing pollution... Instead of owning up, point a finger.

  5. #15
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alienclock View Post
    Sorry. or umm... you are welcome.
    I think your point is that it is better to be educated than uneducated. And an educated environment is better than an uneducated one. And that paying the tax cost of that is well worth it. Even if you don't want too...

    However, my point has less to do with yours, and more to do with the idea that public education serves the public. It is a separate and different and only somewhat connected to yours. I do feel however, that keeping the animals off the streets and and keeping them in public school is better than letting them run free. Imagine the rise in crime. What if their mothers had to stop working to watch them? They would work less...
    Yep, and then rise in pollution, if those kids, or their moms are then allowed to reproduce.

    Thank you for quoting me, it makes me feel special. I am not kidding, it does. You noticed me.

    I gotta ask this, who determines if a child is unneeded... Thats sort of a good question.

    My point was that an educated populus benefits everyone, and that public education money is money well spent. I did imply, though, that I don't think our current education system is doing as good a job of that as it could, for many of the reasons you allude to in your post. Teachers are hog-tied and in many cases prevented by red tape from truly reaching students. A bloated bureaucracy sustains itself at the expense of the students. And, yes, in some ways we are teaching children to sit down and shut up and allow yourself to be crammed with facts that won't help you learn to think. I'm a witness to the fact that it doesn't HAVE to be that way, though, and I think we COULD implement a truly beneficial public education system.

  6. #16
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    I think you were trying to agree with one another (surprisingly).

    Socialism vs Paying-for-everything-privately is such a big debate in life. Do I want to pay for other people's kids to be schooled, even though I don't have any? Sure..... I pay far more in tax than I'll ever use, but I like the safety net if I were sick, or unemployed, or old (all of which are provided for, by the state).

    -Geoff

  7. #17
    Senior Member Alienclock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff View Post
    I think you were trying to agree with one another (surprisingly).
    I can be agreeable. I am a wonderfully nice and kind person. I agree with you even now.
    Although I even agree with you below too, I have to make a distinction.
    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff View Post
    Socialism vs Paying-for-everything-privately is such a big debate in life.
    NO way, not in my book, its more like, who has the right to control me and to what extent? I welcome all forms of government monies and contributions etc! pssh, I think the government can serve the people without having to disappear or without swallowing us up into socialism. But then, business has sort of replaced royalty in repressing people. And people seem to like it.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Crabapple's Avatar
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    Well, with all the ecological damage we're doing now, we may need all the extra people to make Soylent Green.
    Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
    -- Unknown

  9. #19
    Senior Member Crabapple's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alienclock View Post
    What does a high quality public education look like?

    They teach us how to sit still, how to be patient, how to behave in a group as a group, how to relinquish our identity to the group, they teach us to speak only at certain times, they teach us how to tolerate repetitive actions that do not have any clear benefit, and those are many of the skills we DO need as employees. They also teach us to know our place, and not challenge the usefulness of things, they feed us, socialize us, and let us know that they have their best interests in mind. So they teach us to trust the institution, and to sacrifice our natural instincts so we can learn to be productive members of society, ie employees.

    So in other words, public education is beneficial. It has created the trusting complacent apathetic society that we currently enjoy. Hmmm, before public education, what did kids do all day? How did they learn? And most of all, how did they learn to FIT IN? Who did they work for?
    I so totally agree. How would people learn to be wage slaves and accept economic injustic if it weren't drilled into them from the time they're small children? And we do need to warehouse them whether they're getting a quality education or not. How else could we have more women in the workforce, and pay them 70%-75% of what men get? By limiting half our population to substandard wages for the crime of lacking a penis, businesses save money. God forbid that people could live on a single income. And education really needs to be substandard for some members of the population. It saves taxpayers money and insures that we have people who are only able to clean toilets- cheaply!
    Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
    -- Unknown

  10. #20
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    Don't forget the (often illegal) immigrants, they tend to fill those jobs in most western countries.

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