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  1. #191

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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    I was responding to someone else's post about a libertarian website. Is that OK? And who are you?
    I am a lurker who has rarely seen you post about anything but libertarian issues.

  2. #192
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    Wait, so being a nazi or a communist in Germany/Russia in the 1930s (when there was already massive gleichschaltung) was a sign of superior intelligence? I can see the correlation between intelligence and out of the box thinking but being a nazi in Nazi Germany is the opposite of out of the box thinking. And as for today...let's just say I don't see it. Some of this depends on your definition of communism, etc, but to be a nazi or stalinist today (and I am usually reluctant to compare the two) means to not have learned any lessons from history. How is that a sign of intelligence?

    As for your above post on libertarians: I never said they had lower IQ, I didn't even doubt they might have a higher one (and hinted at some of the reasons), I just smirked at the self assessment of those forum users, I mean 13,4% of them among the top 0,13% of the general population and the rest directly below, still clearly almost all Mensa material, seriously?! I merely stated that this would not mean that they are neccessarily right. That's all.

    Also, I didn't say high income people tend to be libertarian, I said libertarians tend to be people with high income and/or education. You confirmed this. Where we differ is in the interpretation of the raw data. This might be my cultural background speaking, but the libertarian party here in Germany has only one real issue on its agenda and that is lower taxes, lowers taxes and lower taxes and their voters come disproportionately from above average income groups. They recently arranged for a special VAT cut for hotels shortly after receiving a large donation from the owner of a hotel chain. In Germany libertarians are a lobby for big business and they basically considere welfare receivers subhuman paracites. Social liberties are much less important to them than fiscal conservatism. I am a left libertarian, you seem to be a right libertarian, seen from a distance we have some common ground. It's money we won't be able to agree on. But that has a lot to do with core values or political axioms that are usually hard to shake in people of any orientation. Hope this helped.
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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  3. #193
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheStarchDefenders View Post
    I am a lurker who has rarely seen you post about anything but libertarian issues.
    I'm a pretty outspoken guy on politics, and I do feel somewhat compelled to say something when people mention libertarianism, because they are often either way off-base or they're used to dealing with the kind of loony "libertarians" often found online. Do you read any other boards, like the Relationships one or anything music-, film-, or education-related. I don't post nearly as often now that I am in grad school and have a semi-serious gf, but it's nice to share ideas.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  4. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    Race. Breed. Religion. Social arrogance. Vainglory.
    Class is waspie supremacy. Good investments, safety. Old money.
    White. Anglo-Saxon. Protestant.

    Manifestations in history:
    1. South: KKK
    2. North: IQ nonsense.
    Agreed 100%

  5. #195
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    Wait, so being a nazi or a communist in Germany/Russia in the 1930s (when there was already massive gleichschaltung) was a sign of superior intelligence? I can see the correlation between intelligence and out of the box thinking but being a nazi in Nazi Germany is the opposite of out of the box thinking. And as for today...let's just say I don't see it. Some of this depends on your definition of communism, etc, but to be a nazi or stalinist today (and I am usually reluctant to compare the two) means to not have learned any lessons from history. How is that a sign of intelligence?
    I am saying that Nazis or Communists in the 1930s were probably of higher intelligence than Nazis or Communists of today, not that Nazis or Communists were really intelligent people. There were brilliant Nazi scientists, lawyers, military minds. Many intellectuals in Europe and North America flirted with small-c communism before Stalin's enormities were revealed. I think that anyone still toeing those party lines has to be defective in some manner now, either in brainpower or humanity.


    As for your above post on libertarians: I never said they had lower IQ, I didn't even doubt they might have a higher one (and hinted at some of the reasons), I just smirked at the self assessment of those forum users, I mean 13,4% of them among the top 0,13% of the general population and the rest directly below, still clearly almost all Mensa material, seriously?! I merely stated that this would not mean that they are neccessarily right. That's all.
    IQ is always problematic, and nearly all being Mensa material is pretty ridiculous, but the correlation between education/IQ/whatever you want to call it and belief in self-sufficiency or less government intervention.


    Also, I didn't say high income people tend to be libertarian, I said libertarians tend to be people with high income and/or education. You confirmed this. Where we differ is in the interpretation of the raw data. This might be my cultural background speaking, but the libertarian party here in Germany has only one real issue on its agenda and that is lower taxes, lowers taxes and lower taxes and their voters come disproportionately from above average income groups. They recently arranged for a special VAT cut for hotels shortly after receiving a large donation from the owner of a hotel chain. In Germany libertarians are a lobby for big business and they basically considere welfare receivers subhuman paracites. Social liberties are much less important to them than fiscal conservatism. I am a left libertarian, you seem to be a right libertarian, seen from a distance we have some common ground. It's money we won't be able to agree on. But that has a lot to do with core values or political axioms that are usually hard to shake in people of any orientation. Hope this helped.
    I would say libertarianism runs upper-middle-class in the United States. White-collar workers, intellectuals, some creative types. Almost all college graduates, many with postgrad degrees. The Kochs are unusual in that most super-wealthy Americans are either apolitical or some type of center-left, "pragmatist," Donald Trump/Ross Perot semi-populist economic mercantilist, or mildly conservative.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  6. #196
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    Wait, so being a nazi or a communist in Germany/Russia in the 1930s (when there was already massive gleichschaltung) was a sign of superior intelligence? I can see the correlation between intelligence and out of the box thinking but being a nazi in Nazi Germany is the opposite of out of the box thinking. And as for today...let's just say I don't see it. Some of this depends on your definition of communism, etc, but to be a nazi or stalinist today (and I am usually reluctant to compare the two) means to not have learned any lessons from history. How is that a sign of intelligence?
    Their is a huge difference between going along with Communist/Stalinist/Nazi subversion of what we (sort of) unanimously consider human rights, and analyzing the economic theories behind these movements and finding good sense in them. For example, look at American communists in the 1930s. You'll find them in the company of renowned great thinkers.

  7. #197
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    Oh, so you are talking about Americans. American communists of the era are a curious movement I don't know enough about to contribute. But I don't think you needed to be an intellectual to be one back then. Didn't you people have a worker's movement?
    Somehow I doubt American nazi sympathizers were persuaded by economic theory. Henry Ford seems to have been gaga more than anything else and it was his The International Jew that turned Baldur von Schirach into an anti-semite. So there you had an American nazi influencing a German nazi. If that is superior creative thinking.
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  8. #198
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    Oh, so you are talking about Americans. American communists of the era are a curious movement I don't know enough about to contribute. But I don't think you needed to be an intellectual to be one back then. Didn't you people have a worker's movement?
    Somehow I doubt American nazi sympathizers were persuaded by economic theory. Henry Ford seems to have been gaga more than anything else and it was his The International Jew that turned Baldur von Schirach into an anti-semite. So there you had an American nazi influencing a German nazi. If that is superior creative thinking.
    To be fair, I'm totally looking at this from an American communist's perspective. There isn't much of a Nazi movement here and I don't think there ever really was, and I don't foresee one sweeping any significant portions of our population in the foreseeable future. But yes, intellectual and communist, while not synonymous in pre-WWII America, certainly appear to go hand in hand.

  9. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    Oh, so you are talking about Americans. American communists of the era are a curious movement I don't know enough about to contribute. But I don't think you needed to be an intellectual to be one back then. Didn't you people have a worker's movement?
    Labor movement, yes. Some unions were Communist-infiltrated, as were some departments of government in the FDR and Truman Administrations. However, there has never been a major communist or fascist popular movement in the U.S. I wouldn't be surprised if fascist- or communist-leaning Americans were more intellectual than the median American at the time.


    Somehow I doubt American nazi sympathizers were persuaded by economic theory. Henry Ford seems to have been gaga more than anything else and it was his The International Jew that turned Baldur von Schirach into an anti-semite. So there you had an American nazi influencing a German nazi. If that is superior creative thinking.
    Some were. Some were manufacturers who felt that a corporatist state would be beneficial, especially during the Great Depression. I don't know if I would actually call Ford a "Nazi," but he certainly was an anti-Semite and had some affinity for Nazi/fascist ideas, at least before WWII.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  10. #200
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    Oh, Red Herring, were you referring to FDP as Germany's libertarian-ish party? They seem a little materialist compared to American libertarians. European politics in general seems very materialist and classist to me.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

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