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  1. #121
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    I don't think that's necessarily an intuitive idea.

    People are surely attracted to conservative movements for many reasonable reasons that aren't related uneducated:
    Sure they are, otherwise men like William Buckley wouldn't have existed. I'm saying that conservatism appeals to uneducated Americans more than liberalism.

    I think you are probably unaware of how ridiculous the evangelical movement in the US actually is. It's not based on reason. I think it's the closest analog to Muslim fundamentalism that you'll find in the Western world. These people actually believe the Bible mentions the US, that the US is a nation chosen by God. There's a lot more to it and I don't want to write a 10 page post on evangelicals, so I'll give you a link that might supply some context. It's a 6-hour program, but if you really want to understand, this will give you some important background.

    http://www.pbs.org/godinamerica/view...tm_source=grid

    P.S. I grew up in an evangelical family, in a county that was dominated by evangelicals. My perspective is not actually based on this PBS documentary, the documentary just coincides with and explains what I have experienced.

    I may not going to say if they are right or wrong; but I don't really understand how any of those points would show a lack of education.
    Look at this thread if you want to see why evangelicals might be uneducated. There is one poster who actually believes higher education institutions are brainwashing people. That position is one that many evangelicals subscribe to. It's not an outlier. Many of them truly believe that in order to reject the Bible (and accepting scientific theories like evolution is the same as rejecting the Bible to them), you must have been brainwashed.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #122
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Sure they are, otherwise men like William Buckley wouldn't have existed. I'm saying that conservatism appeals to uneducated Americans more than liberalism.

    I think you are probably unaware of how ridiculous the evangelical movement in the US actually is. It's not based on reason. I think it's the closest analog to Muslim fundamentalism that you'll find in the Western world. These people actually believe the Bible mentions the US, that the US is a nation chosen by God. There's a lot more to it and I don't want to write a 10 page post on evangelicals, so I'll give you a link that might supply some context. It's a 6-hour program, but if you really want to understand, this will give you some important background.

    http://www.pbs.org/godinamerica/view...tm_source=grid

    P.S. I grew up in an evangelical family, in a county that was dominated by evangelicals. My perspective is not actually based on this PBS documentary, the documentary just coincides with and explains what I experienced.


    Look at this thread if you want to see why evangelicals might be uneducated. There is one poster who actually believes higher education institutions are brainwashing people. That position is one that many evangelicals subscribe to. It's not an outlier. Some of them truly believe that in order to reject the Bible (and accepting scientific theories like evolution is the same as rejecting the Bible to them), you must have been brainwashed.
    I'm really unsure why you are determined that you (and PBS) have found the pulse of evangelicals. I know crazy ones and I know sane ones, I know intelligent ones and screwy ones. You should start a thread on evangelicals if you want to be going off like this, I'm not sure belongs in this thread.

  3. #123
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elaur View Post
    I'm really unsure why you are determined that you (and PBS) have found the pulse of evangelicals. I know crazy ones and I know sane ones, I know intelligent ones and screwy ones. You should start a thread on evangelicals if you want to be going off like this, I'm not sure belongs in this thread.
    I've never met a crazy evangelical. They all seemed perfectly sane to me.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #124
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    See my first complaint on the same issues in post #62 and Architectonic in post #96 for agreement with Uumlau.

    I just opened the study and asked 'What is this? Homeopathy for politicians?'
    See my own post much earlier than that with the same idea, if it's a pissing contest. I saw both those posts (and agreed with them).

    He just did a good job explaining some of the more obvious flaws.
    -end of thread-

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    See my own post much earlier than that with the same idea, if it's a pissing contest. I saw both those posts (and agreed with them).

    He just did a good job explaining some of the more obvious flaws.
    Apologies, I read #18 but not the first paragraph. I'm just trying to build consensus around the key aspects of 'scientific studies' and what isn't. It's a personal pet peeve of mine when someone goes 'Study says, therefore must be!' completely ignoring the contextual boundaries of the study or the methods.

  6. #126
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Agreed.
    -end of thread-

  7. #127
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    I agree with your sentiment Metaphor.

    Education exists to teach facts and method. It doesn't exist to create opinion. Just like religion shouldn't get involved in politics the politics shouldn't get involved in education.
    Back to the post I made shortly before yours.

    What is a fact? I have come to believe it is a fact that the impact of industrialization is changing the global environment in a manner harmful to civilization. There are some however who don't believe that is a fact, and this belief tends to be splits down political lines so those who don't believe it tend to lump those who do in with liberals or left-wingers. So, if I taught that to someone believing it was a fact, someone else would see I am teaching to create an opinion.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  8. #128
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Apologies, I read #18 but not the first paragraph. I'm just trying to build consensus around the key aspects of 'scientific studies' and what isn't. It's a personal pet peeve of mine when someone goes 'Study says, therefore must be!' completely ignoring the contextual boundaries of the study or the methods.
    There are even problems with scientific studies. Everything should be questioned. But with this thread, I don't know if anyone here actually views this study as gospel.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  9. #129
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
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    You can't decide something is a fact because you believe it. Just giving the excuse of "I think it's a fact" is exactly the problem people are making. So if someone taught about the flying spaghetti monster because they think it's a fact is not teaching opinion?

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    What is a fact?.
    Statistical analysis techniques have been well established since the late Victorian era; I think there comes a point where we can say 'This is almost fact' enough for it to be considered fact. But also the scientific method pre-empts that. If you are measuring something in a dodgy way or perform the measurements on a very limited sample then you are deceiving yourself as to it being a 'measured fact' when it might be 'on to something' but isn't confirmed.

    On of the many tasks I routinely enjoy is designing oil pipe lines. There are standards we follow; such as API14E for erosional purposes which have been generated on statistical analysis and are overseen by a large board of specialists who monitor and update as new information becomes available. This is pretty common practice in all engineering disciplines because there are things which are viewed as required industry standards and are by law in the public domain.

    Psychological and medical testing have similar criteria based upon their own boundaries to establish cause and causation. These are generally that the result should be statistically relevant; and that the testing must consider placebo effect etc. In this case it isn't so much even a break with the statistical laws; there are more fundamental logical errors regarding how the conclusions were drawn from the base data in the methodology. It's just not sensible to draw the conclusion from this study that were given.

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