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  1. #41
    Member Torai's Avatar
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    Yeah, but equal treatment is. There are a lot of things which tie in with marriage. You can file for taxes as married, you can visit your spouse in the hospital. You can also have a say in life or death matters there, too. These are unable to happen in the case of civil unions.

    Yes, marriage is a social institution, but a lot of legal aspects are tied to it, and that in itself is discrimination.

  2. #42
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight
    My argument comes from the fact that Gays feel their sexually constitutes a CULTURE.
    well, if you don't live in a society that is okay with gay people in general, there's definitely a cultural underground. it's obvious, where i live (southern US). a lesbian friend of mine explained it as you discover a whole new network of people, a whole new lingo, and a whole new set of social protocols. i've hung out with her and some of her lesbian friends before, and i see what she means. i understand how it could feel like a subculture.

    i dunno why it should be a problem though. pretty much every chick flick is a celebration of straight culture. i think for a lot of people it's hard to understand how isolating it can feel to not be able to just love who you love without general disdain. and it's kinda pervasive... there are so many things which are oriented to straight people that we don't even notice. bathrooms, movies, wedding dates, marriage clothes, commercials, clothing, etc. it's a very binary world. hence gay pride parades - a giant party where suddenly that binary is dissolved. i'm not gay myself but i love pride parades... so much fun

  3. #43
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torai View Post
    Nice argument. But bullying is the school's fault, not the parents. I actually wouldn't care if my parents were same-gender as long as they were good parents. There are schools that actually have a working no-discrimination policy for that. I should know, I was in one. There was this kid with two gay dads, and nobody really teased him for it. Sure, there are high schools that discriminate. If the parents are good enough parents, they will try to find a different school for their kid.
    Bullying is the bully's fault

  4. #44
    Member Torai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    Bullying is the bully's fault
    You got me on that one. My point is, though, it's not the parent's fault. Unless they know about it and don't take action. Then it's indirectly their fault. Same with the school.

    Unrelated:
    69 posts. Giggity.
    (Yes, it was immature, but I had to do it.)

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    There's no hypocrisy when you look at the messages that the parades convey. Heteros are already the dominant majority. Being gay is still considered shameful in many segments of society. The objective of the gay parade is to elevate their status to that of the majority. Once that status is reached, you can hold hetero pride parades every day if you wish.


    Homosexuals are an identifiable group. Just like ethnic minorities, they are often met with misunderstanding and distrust.


    You are comparing homosexuality to violent crimes? Crime is harmful to society when it occurs. Homosexuality is not. When people are exposed to it and see that the sky did not fall, they will be more opened to accept it.

    I know I use to feel uncomfortable around gays. But not any more.

    There's no hypocrisy when you look at the messages that the parades convey. Heteros are already the dominant majority. Being gay is still considered shameful in many segments of society. The objective of the gay parade is to elevate their status to that of the majority. Once that status is reached, you can hold hetero pride parades every day if you wish.
    OK, I will say it again.. I live in a society where gay marriage is legal.. I live in Ontario Canada.. please look it up if you don't know what I am talking about.

    Here they have elevated themselves to that of the majority.. BUT.. they also still want their special status based on "culture".. which I have stated I am fine with.. As long as Heterosexuality is also considered a "culture".
    If sexuality is a culture.. Then what right does one culture have to claim something off another culture in the name of equality if they are not going to practice the same equality??

    The status here, has been reached.. But If I try to organize my heterosexual pride parade.. I'll meet seriously stiff resistance, and will most likely be stopped.

    You don't know what I am talking about.. Or, you are trying to add hatred or homo phobia to my words, when I am clearly only trying to defend democracy and equality. This isn't about gays OK.. It's about equality for all.. Special interest needs to go away once equality is obtained.. Why keep fighting once the battle is won??
    This is why there is bitterness and resistance to special interest.

    This is my "logical" argument against gay marriage in a society where gay marriage is legal..
    Because it seems to want to keep it's "special" status even once it has achieved equality.

    Homosexuals are an identifiable group. Just like ethnic minorities, they are often met with misunderstanding and distrust.
    OH???? They are only identifiable in most cases, because they draw attention to it by proclaiming their homosexuality.
    They are the ones who single themselves out , not the majority.

    For example.. I would have no idea certain members of this site are gay.. I know because they proclaim it.

    "I want equality , but.. I am also special..simply because of who I have sex with "

    Seems pretty silly to me, with all things being "equal".. no?

    You are comparing homosexuality to violent crimes? Crime is harmful to society when it occurs. Homosexuality is not. When people are exposed to it and see that the sky did not fall, they will be more opened to accept it.
    NO I am not comparing homosexuality to violent crimes..
    You said exposing someone to something makes them more likely to accept it..
    I Proved beyond a doubt what nonsense that is..
    No one is "forcing" me on daily basis to accept murder.. That is the difference.

    Exposure has nothing to do with it.. Unless the exposure has an agenda attached to it..
    That's called brainwashing.

    It's exactly what gays are apparently fighting against.

  6. #46
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    OK, I will say it again.. I live in a society where gay marriage is legal.. I live in Ontario Canada.. please look it up if you don't know what I am talking about.

    Here they have elevated themselves to that of the majority.. BUT.. they also still want their special status based on "culture".. which I have stated I am fine with.. As long as Heterosexuality is also considered a "culture".
    If sexuality is a culture.. Then what right does one culture have to claim something off another culture in the name of equality if they are not going to practice the same equality??

    The status here, has been reached.. But If I try to organize my heterosexual pride parade.. I'll meet seriously stiff resistance, and will most likely be stopped.

    You don't know what I am talking about.. Or, you are trying to add hatred or homo phobia to my words, when I am clearly only trying to defend democracy and equality. This isn't about gays OK.. It's about equality for all.. Special interest needs to go away once equality is obtained.. Why keep fighting once the battle is won??
    This is why there is bitterness and resistance to special interest.

    This is my "logical" argument against gay marriage in a society where gay marriage is legal..
    Because it seems to want to keep it's "special" status even once it has achieved equality.



    OH???? They are only identifiable in most cases, because they draw attention to it by proclaiming their homosexuality.
    They are the ones who single themselves out , not the majority.

    For example.. I would have no idea certain members of this site are gay.. I know because they proclaim it.

    "I want equality , but.. I am also special..simply because of who I have sex with "

    Seems pretty silly to me, with all things being "equal".. no?



    NO I am not comparing homosexuality to violent crimes..
    You said exposing someone to someone makes them more likely to accept it..
    I Proved beyond a doubt what nonsense that is..
    No one is "forcing" me on daily basis to accept murder.. That is the difference.

    Exposure has nothing to do with it.. Unless the exposure has an agenda attached to it..
    That's called brainwashing.

    It's exactly what gays are apparently fighting against.
    You can celebrate heterosexuality just as easily as you can celebrate homosexuality. Go fuck someone or watch a romantic comedy. Celebrate your lifestyle all day if you want to, I neither encourage it (kind of silly, IMO) nor condemn it.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torai View Post
    Ok, you can quote the Bible as long as you back it up with a logical basis. XD

    Sweeping generalizations aren't allowed in any argument, I'm just being fair.

    I should define sweeping generalizations-

    Example:
    Gays shouldn't get married because most/all gay people have shallow relationships.

    This is a sweeping generalization because it generalizes everyone or nearly everyone in the group.

    When I said no Bible-quoting, however, that was not a sweeping generalization. All I assumed was that some people would quote the Bible to make their point. And besides, our country was founded on separation of church and state.
    Yeah!!! and marriage was founded as union between a man and a woman.. So some traditions are good as long as you agree with them???

    Just asking.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    Can anyone provide a well-supported reason why if gays should be banned from marriage, why sterile people, people too old to breed, people who engage in BDSM or any other type of "fetish" behaviour, people who refuse to breed, people who have heritary mental/emotional/physical diseases and men who practice Onanism (masturbation) should be allowed to marry?
    I'll largely address the classic sterile couple(and too old) argument. In such cases the participants are still performing a natural act for which sexual intercourse was intended - namely procreation. The problem is that the capacity to fufill it has been deformed. According to Aristotle, a capacity is a possibility. If it cannot realise itself due to some impediment, one doesn't loose that capacity. The basic essence of the sexual act hasn't changed.

  9. #49
    Member Torai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    Yeah!!! and marriage was founded as union between a man and a woman.. So some traditions are good as long as you agree with them???

    Just asking.
    Nice one. You actually got me there. But marriage was founded as a union of a man to many women. XD

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    I'll largely address the classic sterile couple(and too old) argument. In such cases the participants are still performing a natural act for which sexual intercourse was intended - namely procreation. The problem is that the capacity to fufill it has been deformed. According to Aristotle, a capacity is a possibility. If it cannot realise itself due to some impediment, one doesn't loose that capacity. The basic essence of the sexual act hasn't changed.
    I'm curious. Does that go for people who use condoms to keep from spreading venereal diseases?

    And hypothetically, what about someone who uses birth control because they could not financially handle a kid?

    Besides, don't we have enough people in the world anyway?

  10. #50
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torai View Post
    I'm curious. Does that go for people who use condoms to keep from spreading venereal diseases?
    One could say that condoms are a procreation delayer, not a deformer of the capacity to procreate. And especially in the context you listed, to prevent the spread of disease, the function is somewhat removed. Also note that it is a functional technology, rather than a dysfunctional anomaly. The purpose is clear.

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