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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    SO the issue now is.. You are gay.. so fucking what?? Put it away and act normal.. because you are normal right?
    No more parades.. No more rainbows.. no more culture of sexuality..
    Why don't you demand the same prohibition against other ethnic events?

    You are a special interest group or you are aren't . Having both is bullshit and will just breed more intolerance.
    The opposite is true. If society is exposed constantly to something, it will eventually be accepted as the norm.

    There's really no sound logical argument against gay marriage.
    1. Reproduction: Everyone is not going to go gay and stop breeding just because it is legal. Besides, most sex is done for recreation rather than procreation.

    2. Institutions: Slavery was once an institution. But it was changes without society collapsing. Change is not necessarily bad.

    3. Child rearing: Parents are not the only male and female role models for the children.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post


    What's with all the hostility?

    We're not at that stage in our culture yet.

    I think your comments will appear far more reasonable when same-sex marriage is not socially stigmatized in the manner you seem to be stigmatizing it right here. It would be like telling feminists to STFU in the 80's before they actually had accomplished all the necessary social change.

    At that point, it would merely become "diversity" just like being black or Chinese or Buddhist or Amish or whatever and subject to the same social ebb and flow.

    But I think it's a two-way street. Gays seem hostile to you because they feel culture has shifted some but still possesses some inequities; meanwhile, you are speaking in hostile ways about gays in return because you're resisting the very change they want to promote. Let the change occur, and then they won't be in your face.
    OK First point.. There seems to be a pattern emerging here , where members of this site who have BLUE names seem to feel they are qualified to assess my emotional status.. And it seems the people in blue know only one emotion .. anger..
    SO I am going to explain to you.. and hopefully you will pass it on to your buddies.. I AM BLUNT, I AM BLUNT, I AM BLUNT, I AM BLUNT.
    I am not angry, I am not hostile, I am not bitter, I am often sad and usually pretty neutral. But I AM BLUNT..
    IN real life, people can't tell how I feel 90% of the time unless I make it obvious.. SO I am pretty fed up with some people who don't even know me, telling me how I am feeling on the interwebz.
    I am BLUNT, and usually right. and it makes you feel hostility, or bitterness, or anger and you just end up projecting your feelings on to the messenger.
    OK I don't know that.. But see how freaking annoying it is to have some person who barely knows anything about you, psychoanalyzing you and passing judgments??..


    SO I am going to say it BLUNTLY.. Stop taking everything I say so personally.. All of you.. It's just opinions.. and if my words invoke such strong emotional reactions in you or others.. you need to look at yourselves and ask why.

    Thanks

    Now in my culture we are at the stage .. Gay marriage is legal.

    I already mentioned This is what the issue is in a society where gay marriage is legal.
    Maybe if you stopped reacting emotionally to certain words and actually read the whole body and not just focused on what upset you so much.
    You would know .. That I live in a society where gay marriage is legal.

    I am not stigmatizing anything.. I was asked to present a logical argument against gay marriage (which I am not for or against it. In fact I think all marriage is full of crap)
    My argument comes from the fact that Gays feel their sexually constitutes a CULTURE.
    If this is true. Then ALL sexualities are a culture.. Then my argument is a simple one. What right does one culture have to impose itself on another?
    Culturally speaking.. Marriage is embedded in the culture heterosexuality.
    The gays say that they were fighting for legal status.. They got it.. There fight is over.. So why are they still demanding to be "special" ??
    Maybe they are then.. But then that would make heteros special as well. Which means Maybe they should be allowed to have something unique to their culture as well.

    At that point, it would merely become "diversity" just like being black or Chinese or Buddhist or Amish or whatever and subject to the same social ebb and flow.
    YES EXACTLY.. Is there something wrong with this? Do I need to define equality to you.. Diversity is fine.. until one group gets singled out and treated specially.. As for the majority.. Well this is supposed to be a democracy, SO the majority has to be worth something other than at election time.

    But I think it's a two-way street. Gays seem hostile to you because they feel culture has shifted some but still possesses some inequities; meanwhile, you are speaking in hostile ways about gays in return because you're resisting the very change they want to promote. Let the change occur, and then they won't be in your face.
    Where did I say Gays seem hostile towards me? Where Do I express hostility?
    Does it annoy me?, yes..
    But only politically .. because I am a Democratic , in the true sense of the word.. I have issues with all special interest groups pushing their beliefs on the majority, It's counter democratic.

    SO either gays are welcomed as equal members of this society . Or they keep their "special" status.

    If they have both, don't think for a second that a majority of the population who do not have same rights are not going to be upset about it.

    I will remind you one more time where I live, gay marriage is legal.. SO I am not sure what your last paragraph to me, is actually supposed to be about.

    Thanks

    Arc

  3. #33
    Member Torai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by guesswho View Post
    You'll never get an entirely logical argument against gay marriage? Seriously?

    Here is a logical argument:
    2 men get married, after a while, they decide their lives are empty without a child so they adopt one.
    The child obviously won't be asked if he wants 2 dads.

    But he grows up, he will feel weird at school when he's asked about his parents. Other kids are going to make fun of him, since he comes from a different family. He will grow up to hate his situation. It is a possibility.

    Nobody asked him if he wants 2 parents of the same gender. Maybe he does not want that.

    Of course this operates on the premise that after gay marriage will be OK, the next thing on the list will be gay adoption.

    I'm just saying I wouldn't want to have 2 dads, would you want that?
    Nice argument. But bullying is the school's fault, not the parents. I actually wouldn't care if my parents were same-gender as long as they were good parents. There are schools that actually have a working no-discrimination policy for that. I should know, I was in one. There was this kid with two gay dads, and nobody really teased him for it. Sure, there are high schools that discriminate. If the parents are good enough parents, they will try to find a different school for their kid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    The gays say that they were fighting for legal status.. They got it.. There fight is over.. So why are they still demanding to be "special" ??
    Maybe they are then.. But then that would make heteros special as well. Which means Maybe they should be allowed to have something unique to their culture as well.
    You get to be blunt, I get to be blunt, too. The fact is, in America, where I live, it is not legal. Gay people do not have the same civil rights as straight people. There are tons of rights that civil unions don't offer because they are not nationally recognized. (http://www.now.org/issues/marriage/marriage_unions.html)

    There are people who think they should get special treatment because they're gay. I won't argue with that, but there are also people who think they deserve special treatment for almost anything. I don't believe in unequal treatment. That's why I advocate gay marriage in the first place.

    When I say there are people who want special treatment for almost anything, I know what I'm talking about. I have Asperger's, and I don't believe I deserve any special treatment because of it. Although, I do know this other person who does have Asperger's. They do believe they should get special treatment and everyone should be understanding to their disability. I had to learn to function normally in society, and I don't appreciate these people because they besmirch my name. There's a parallel there, but I'm too lazy to explain it.

  4. #34
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    How does anyone debate for or against gay marriage when marriage itself isn't a rational choice? With the advent of birth control, the relationship between marriage and children can't be considered a logical progression.

    The only argument that is logical, is to question why it's legal to discriminate against individuals based on bedroom preferences. No one is getting hurt with same sex relationships beyond the normal amount of relationship drama and the sensitivities of the control freak puritannicals.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    Why don't you demand the same prohibition against other ethnic events?


    The opposite is true. If society is exposed constantly to something, it will eventually be accepted as the norm.

    There's really no sound logical argument against gay marriage.
    1. Reproduction: Everyone is not going to go gay and stop breeding just because it is legal. Besides, most sex is done for recreation rather than procreation.

    2. Institutions: Slavery was once an institution. But it was changes without society collapsing. Change is not necessarily bad.

    3. Child rearing: Parents are not the only male and female role models for the children.
    Why don't you demand the same prohibition against other ethnic events?
    Who is demanding prohibition against anything?? If I try to organize a heterosexual pride parade . I will be stopped , and if I am not stopped, My parade will meet protest every step of the way. Why? because I will be told I am being exclusive and not being sensitive to the rights of others.
    What Blatant hypocrisy.
    My point again.. Is sexuality a "culture"? If it is, then that includes all sexualities .. So leave the culture of heterosexuality alone, or give it special status as well.. which means no gay marriage, because marriage is culturally hetero.
    It's simply the other side of the same coin.

    The opposite is true. If society is exposed constantly to something, it will eventually be accepted as the norm.
    Really??? You mean like, murder, rape, pedophilia, war and so forth?? I am exposed to this stuff daily. I have yet to notice my acceptance for these things increasing despite the daily exposure.

    I feel what you are really saying is.. If we beat people over the head with something they don't want for long enough, they will submit.
    This is one the first lessons a child learns.. make enough noise and mommy will cave.
    Brilliant!

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Your logic is the same logic that was used to say that interracial marriage was wrong.
    How can it be the same thing?

    I shouldn't have said anything in this thread...since I live in a place where being gay is virtually banned.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    If I try to organize a heterosexual pride parade . I will be stopped , and if I am not stopped, My parade will meet protest every step of the way. Why? because I will be told I am being exclusive and not being sensitive to the rights of others.
    What Blatant hypocrisy.
    There's no hypocrisy when you look at the messages that the parades convey. Heteros are already the dominant majority. Being gay is still considered shameful in many segments of society. The objective of the gay parade is to elevate their status to that of the majority. Once that status is reached, you can hold hetero pride parades every day if you wish.

    My point again.. Is sexuality a "culture"? If it is, then that includes all sexualities .. So leave the culture of heterosexuality alone, or give it special status as well.. which means no gay marriage, because marriage is culturally hetero.
    It's simply the other side of the same coin.
    Homosexuals are an identifiable group. Just like ethnic minorities, they are often met with misunderstanding and distrust.

    Really??? You mean like, murder, rape, pedophilia, war and so forth?? I am exposed to this stuff daily. I have yet to notice my acceptance for these things increasing despite the daily exposure.
    You are comparing homosexuality to violent crimes? Crime is harmful to society when it occurs. Homosexuality is not. When people are exposed to it and see that the sky did not fall, they will be more opened to accept it.

    I know I use to feel uncomfortable around gays. But not any more.

  8. #38
    Member Torai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Well schucks why dont you just start from no disagreement and work from there.
    Ok, you can quote the Bible as long as you back it up with a logical basis. XD

    Sweeping generalizations aren't allowed in any argument, I'm just being fair.

    I should define sweeping generalizations-

    Example:
    Gays shouldn't get married because most/all gay people have shallow relationships.

    This is a sweeping generalization because it generalizes everyone or nearly everyone in the group.

    When I said no Bible-quoting, however, that was not a sweeping generalization. All I assumed was that some people would quote the Bible to make their point. And besides, our country was founded on separation of church and state.

  9. #39
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    Can anyone provide a well-supported reason why if gays should be banned from marriage, why sterile people, people too old to breed, people who engage in BDSM or any other type of "fetish" behaviour, people who refuse to breed, people who have heritary mental/emotional/physical diseases and men who practice Onanism (masturbation) should be allowed to marry?

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torai View Post
    The fact is, in America, where I live, it is not legal.Gay people do not have the same civil rights as straight people.
    Actually they do. It's more about acceptance than really any form of discrimination. Marriage by nature is not a civil right.

    When I said no Bible-quoting, however, that was not a sweeping generalization. All I assumed was that some people would quote the Bible to make their point. And besides, our country was founded on separation of church and state.
    Seperation of church and state does not mean religion is irrelevant to the political process. I've cited court cases upholding convictions on blasphemy on grounds that America is a country founded on Christian principles. To put it another way, while religion may not be part of our written constitution, it most certainly is part of our unwritten constitution(customs, culture, history, etc.) - which takes precedence since the written constitution is a reflection of the unwritten one.

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