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  1. #151
    Member Torai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    Rights come from the law of nature and nature's God. This was the very foundation of the USA.
    "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State."

    Thomas Jefferson, writer of the US Constitution

  2. #152
    ThatGirl
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    I dont see how people who hate gays would be OPPOSED of them getting married?

  3. #153
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    This is by far the best response to my point yet..
    I salute you..
    I guess the issue is.. You can't change how people feel no matter what.. only time will do this.. so force feeding it on them will just make some people angry.. It's like Jennifer says.. these things take time..

    But the first step to being "normal" and "equal" is to become what you have fought for.. That would mean the end of gay as a culture or identity, at least in legal terms.
    There should just be a "sexuality" parade open to ALL people, for example.
    Just like marriage should be open to ALL people.
    You can't be equal and special at the same time.. There is nothing defective or handicapping about who you love or have sex with. Does it entitle you to special "needs"?

    Gays will achieve faster acceptance by not making a case for special status around here, if what they want is for everyone to just think of them as normal people.
    This is actually counter productive to their cause of equality.
    OR has it never really been about equality .. but rather, about being special?
    thanks

    i agree with you, but i do have a hard time being upset with anyone who tries to push for expediency in earning equal rights. the majority will come around eventually, but that's not really fair to people who are born today, who will never get to be equal, you know? it's a hard situation.

    out of curiosity, do you have ideas for how people could balance not appearing to push for special rights (because i suspect that most people don't actually want special rights, but they feel like because they're disadvantaged in so many areas they will take as much as they can get - equality would be preferable, but isn't an option because of the continued personal biases of the majority) with expediting equal treatment?

    i like the idea of a sexuality parade, lol



    Quote Originally Posted by ThatGirl
    I dont see how people who hate gays would be OPPOSED of them getting married?
    lol i know right. gets them off the market.

  4. #154
    Senior Member IndyGhost's Avatar
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    "I don't know a perfect person.
    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
    -John Green

  5. #155
    ThatGirl
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    lol i know right. gets them off the market.
    Nah, you would just think they should suffer like the rest of us. My slam was against marriage not the gays.

  6. #156
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torai View Post
    "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State."

    Thomas Jefferson, writer of the US Constitution
    EDIT: I might be wrong about the danbury baptist letter and wall of seperation. I'll check into this tomorrow.
    Regardless, one letter by Jefferson hardly takes apart my argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Declaration of Independence
    When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  7. #157
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IndyAnnaJoan View Post
    My bad. Poor wording.

    Government has it's place, yes. Early on, when man was still primitive, early forms of government developed to help evenly distribute food and goods, and to help everyone to get along.

    As government grew, more concepts came in to play.

    However, the fallacy in government came when it began to dissect people into classes... believing one subset of people were allowed special rights and privileges, while another one was held down. Where/when/why did government truly earn this right? Does government have the right to choose who is allowed full privileges and happiness? I don't believe they've earned the right to say equality for this group... but not for this group. Equality should be for all.
    The government discriminates against groups of people all the time. It limits some peoples happiness and gives and takes away privileges as well.

    The question is: on what basis may it properly interfere with people's lives?
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  8. #158
    Sniffles
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    Earlier in this thread, I also addressed the issue of seperation of church and state. Allow me to cite James Wilson, who was second only to Madison as author of the Constitution:
    "Of law there are different kinds. All, however, may be arranged in two different classes. 1. Divine. 2. Human laws. The descriptive epithets employed denote, that the former have God, the latter, man, for their author....

    ...Far from being rivals or enemies, religion and law are twin sisters, friends, and mutual assistants. Indeed, these two sciences run into each other. The divine law, as discovered by reason and the moral sense, forms an essential part of both."

    http://www.constitution.org/jwilson/jwilson.htm
    And this is from his lectures in which he is explaining the philosophical basis of the newly adopted Constitution, and it's recorded that George Washington was in attendence at these lectures.

  9. #159
    Tier 1 Member LunaLuminosity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mkenya View Post
    Homosexuality is biologically counter productive. Obviously we'll never get rid of it homosexuality entirely (it's probably a natural part of the human psyche) but since it's unnatural it shouldn't be tolerated. Allowing gay marriage would be tolerating it. <- if you can accept that, then all that remains is proving homosexuality as biologically counter productive.
    Yeah, it is counterproductive for reproduction, but so is a lot of stuff that is legal, marriage perhaps even being one of those.
    And someone who is gay isn’t going to start reproducing with people just because their marriage is outlawed or because people do not tolerate their innate desires.

    Quote Originally Posted by perfectgirl View Post
    The only issue that I'm aware of is that it's not
    possible. Might be a good thing! For those that are confused, I'm not willing to help you there, sorries.
    So… you make this incomprehensible argument and expect it to be valid without it being explained? This thread is for logical arguments.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    SO the issue now is.. You are gay.. so fucking what?? Put it away and act normal.. because you are normal right?
    No more parades.. No more rainbows.. no more culture of sexuality..
    You are a special interest group or you are aren't . Having both is bullshit and will just breed more intolerance.
    So do you disagree with the presence of INTPcentral?
    What about even this forum?
    All types are equal in terms of the law but there are often celebrations of identity here and discussions about coping in a world where it is harder for the stranger types to be able to function.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Gay marriage or marriage between two persons of the same sex can not be because marriage is by definition a relationship between two members of the opposite sex, sorry if that hurts anyones feelings but check the dictionary.
    Other than the rest of the stuff you said that doesn’t make any sense, this is the closest thing to a logical argument that I’ve seen. And I’ve mentioned this before.
    Then the question is, is there a consensus that the definition of marriage is union of man and woman?
    And if so, is this definition able to be modified to have the same root but with details slightly changing? Definitions do not always stay the same over thousands of years.

    Quote Originally Posted by guesswho View Post
    Here is a logical argument:
    2 men get married, after a while, they decide their lives are empty without a child so they adopt one.
    The child obviously won't be asked if he wants 2 dads.
    But he grows up, he will feel weird at school when he's asked about his parents. Other kids are going to make fun of him, since he comes from a different family. He will grow up to hate his situation. It is a possibility.
    Nobody asked him if he wants 2 parents of the same gender. Maybe he does not want that.
    None of us really get to choose who our parents are.
    What if a child is bullied and hates the situation of having parents who are terribly deformed, so that just the fact of the parent’s presence leads to the teasing? But parents like this and others who are easy targets for ridicule are still allowed to be married.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    Who is demanding prohibition against anything?? If I try to organize a heterosexual pride parade . I will be stopped , and if I am not stopped, My parade will meet protest every step of the way. Why? because I will be told I am being exclusive and not being sensitive to the rights of others. What Blatant hypocrisy.
    I agree with this. This is terrible is heterosexual pride parades are truly stopped. You should totally be allowed to celebrate your mainstream sexual preferences, though I don’t see much reason to. Heterosexual pride is on display 24/7.

    Quote Originally Posted by Torai View Post
    There are a lot of things which tie in with marriage. You can file for taxes as married, you can visit your spouse in the hospital. You can also have a say in life or death matters there, too. These are unable to happen in the case of civil unions. Yes, marriage is a social institution, but a lot of legal aspects are tied to it, and that in itself is discrimination.
    Yes, this is where it becomes a discrimination issue. The discrimination problem ends when gay partners get to have all those legal benefits that married couples have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    Yeah!!! and marriage was founded as union between a man and a woman.. So some traditions are good as long as you agree with them???
    The difference is, there is still a very clear need for the separation of church and state. But I don’t see where the need is to prevent same-sex marriage.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    If gays want to do disgusting, horrible, immoral things in the privacy of their own home, within the confines of a sinful, blasphemous relationship, who are we to judge?
    Yeah pretty much. But it isn’t about judging, it’s about being allowed to marry. People should be able to view same-sexual activity as disgusting but not throw the government at them.

    Quote Originally Posted by ScorpioINTP View Post
    Sitting at a desk for 9 hrs a day is not natural. We should discourage that too.
    For sure

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Its not a matter of standing on tradition when you refuse to revise the meaning of marriage, if you change something so drastically that it no longer even resembles what it once was then its no longer that thing at all. Simple as. Recycle newsprint to make note books and its no longer newsprint. Recycle coke cans to make a toaster rack and its the toaster rack isnt going to be a good place to keep soft drink, you know?
    But a notebook that is made of recycled paper is as much of a notebook as those made from freshly chopped trees.
    In a same-sex marriage, the things that make it up are non-typical, but it is still as much of a notebook…um, a marriage.

    Quote Originally Posted by IndyAnnaJoan View Post
    Imagine being born gay. (And trust me... you're either born that way or you aren't.) Now imagine you truly love someone and have decided you want to spend the rest of your life with that person. Now... imagine most of the society is against your type of love and refuses to recognize the fact that you wish to marry this person. Imagine your love is in the hospital, and you aren't allowed to see them as you aren't considered family... or that you have no legal right to join your life with the person you love and have no legality to claim them in taxes or any of the other benefits that come out of marriage. Not to mention the fact that everyone believes you are just being devious and immoral. Don't you sort of feel like a second class citizen? Doesn't hurt to be told that you don't deserve the same rights heterosexuals are allowed? Doesn't hurt that your love isn't recognized?
    I agree with all this, though this in itself is an appeal to emotion, not to logic. But I do think that it isn’t very legal to not be legally allowed to one’s spouse in the hospital.

    Quote Originally Posted by ScorpioINTP View Post
    Just because something isn't considered natural, doesn't mean we need a law against it. Now you get it?
    Yes, I do get it. I hope everyone else does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    You can't be equal and special at the same time.
    Why not? Enneagram 4s often are

    Quote Originally Posted by Fan of Devin View Post
    Gay marriage?
    I'm against it.
    But, I'm against straight marriage too, so...
    De-institutionalize marriage entirely, and replace it with civil unions, problem solved.
    Let churches fight over "what marriage really is", I frankly give a shit either way.
    In the end, homosexual couples deserve to be just as miserable as straight couples.
    Exactly

  10. #160
    Senior Member LEGERdeMAIN's Avatar
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    Even when he was president he attended church services in the capital building.
    That statement doesn't imply that he was forcing his religious beliefs on others, which is what the 1st Amendment addresses. Simply practicing your religion as a politician is not prohibited; denying the citizens their right to practice their religion freely is prohibited.
    “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I’m here to tell you that fast is better. I’ve always believed this, in spite of the trouble it’s caused me. Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…”


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