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  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    Thought police?? A law is designed to control behavior and it gives a person a choice. Telling someone they have to "accept" something
    Is whole different arena.. It's thought control. It's manipulation. Are you sure you want to go there to back up your argument?
    What law are you talking about? Anti-discrimination laws? Or are you simply demanding that gays refrain from promoting their acceptance?
    Isn't that the whole point of equality? Isn't equality what the gays fought for here? To be considered "average every people that you already see on the streets?"
    Your response does not make sense within the context of what I said.

    So my point is.. Why the parade to single yourself out as different??
    I answered this already. To present themselves in a positive light to the general population. To be able to proclaim it without shame.

    Hypocrisy is illogical .. No one can counter this point as of yet.
    That because it's a non-nonsensical statement.

    But you miss my point it seems.. I don't know most people who are gay, are gay, until they tell me they are gay. And why do I care?
    I have never met a hetero sexual who has ever used this to identify themselves.
    It's just sex.. I don't get it. OK I admit.. I do not see an issue here at all..
    I answered this many times already. Harmless exposure leads to acceptance.
    I admit, I feel, using sexuality to define a culture or an identity, is retarded.. Is that what is getting people upset about what I am saying?
    Another nonsensical statement. What does it even mean?

  2. #142
    Senior Member Fan.of.Devin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    Please elaborate.
    Sure thing.

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  3. #143
    Senior Member IndyGhost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    Thought police?? A law is designed to control behavior and it gives a person a choice. Telling someone they have to "accept" something
    Is whole different arena.
    . It's thought control. It's manipulation. Are you sure you want to go there to back up your argument?
    Turn that question around... are YOU sure you want to go there to back up your argument?

    So, let's use the example of black peoples rights or womens rights. Basically, what you are saying is that though the government has considered these people as equal, that the government would be considered a thought police to enforce them to become an equal in everyone elses mind?


    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    Isn't that the whole point of equality? Isn't equality what the gays fought for here? To be considered "average every people that you already see on the streets?"

    So my point is.. Why the parade to single yourself out as different??
    correct "fought" to "are fighting." "Isn't equality what the gays ARE FIGHTING for here?" And the answer to that is, yes.

    Once again, it's a celebration of who they are. Not all gay people feel comfortable coming out of the closet, you know... and part of this fight, and part of the reason for the celebration, and part of the reason for the parades, is to celebrate that it's okay to be gay. Gay... and the emphasis is on... Pride. Be proud, as in, accept who you are... come out, come out, wherever you are, and don't be ashamed to hide it from your family, or your preacher, or your boss, etc. In order to become socially accepted as an equal, you first have to make way to the forefront, and then assimilate back in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    Hypocrisy is illogical .. No one can counter this point as of yet.
    Are you listening to yourself? "Hypocrisy is illogical." Didn't you already state that you don't actually stand by these beliefs... that you're merely bringing in another view?

    Also, you aren't even attempting to understand anyone elses point of view. Any time anyone brings up something that goes against what you say, you merely write them off and refuse to actually counter argue... or instead move around in circles with the same argument over and over, exclaiming no one has yet refuted your point.

    Now, I realize I'm not always the best at making my arguments clear, but I do my best to take into consideration what someone else has to say, and follow along with their line of logic. Why don't you try doing the same? Isn't this only supposed to make your argument or belief stronger? And if not, prove the fallacy in ones own way of thinking?





    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post

    Is who you fuck really part of your identity???
    Is it not part of yours? A lot of people like to identify who they are according to who they are with. Most people like to consider this romantic... but also, in the sense of being a heterosexual... it's of course widely accepted as it is the norm, so one doesn't really focus on the heterosexual aspect. But I do think that people often identify their self as being sexual creatures in general... identifying their self in their own sexuality.

    This was a big part in the women's movement as well. Wasn't this also why Madonna became so gosh darn famous? She put the female sexuality on the forefront and in everyone's face. Before that phase of time, it was deviant for a woman to talk about sex.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    I don't know most people who are gay, are gay, until they tell me they are gay. And why do I care?
    I have never met a hetero sexual who has ever used this to identify themselves.
    It's just sex.. I don't get it. OK I admit.. I do not see an issue here at all..
    Well... I'd say a heterosexual male identifies his own sexuality in perhaps a sexual joke about females, or whatever it is men joke and shoot the sh*t about when women aren't around. However, not all heterosexual males feel the need to assert their identity and sexuality in this way... but a great number do.

    And you know... I can't say I've met a gay person come up to me and introduce themselves as, "Hi, I'm ___ and I'm gay." I've come to be friends with maaaaaaany gays and lesbians, and not a single damned one has ever introduced their self this way. It's usually something that's just figured out in the same round about way you figure out someones straight, or has a boyfriend, or has a pet dog, or the same way you find out their favorite color is blue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    I admit, I feel, using sexuality to define a culture or an identity, is retarded.. Is that what is getting people upset about what I am saying?
    Somewhat. That alongside the fact that you believe that there is no longer the need to fight for equality, as it's already been achieved, and that you believe the government is thought police to have a say in what should be created equal... oh and that you stated earlier that you didn't actually stand by any of this but were merely expressing a plausible point of view... and that the gay pride parade is a detriment to heterosexual's rights... amongst a few other things, I'm sure.



    No... What you are talking about is, brainwashing.. Thought police.. "Re-education".. It's everything the gay crusade is supposed to be against.[/QUOTE]

    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    Which is fine, until they have achieved legal equality. Do I really have to keep explaining this?
    Read my last post.. maybe that will help.
    "I don't know a perfect person.
    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
    -John Green

  4. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Again, think for a moment:
    Do you think gay people care they're gay either, at first? They don't care... until they start to express/pursue gay preference options, and het society immediately says, "Gross, your sexuality is WRONG, you are perverse/sick."

    It ain't uncommon for kids showing gay preference to be bullied by their friends, antagonized by their parents, and rejected from their families. I've heard more than a few times how parents have told their kids they'd rather they'd be dead than be gay. And you wonder why there is a hardcore response to cling to an aspect of one's being in the face of that onslaught?

    You sound exactly like part of a privileged majority here, unable to momentarily step outside your own life experience to project yourself into someone else's perspective. And, in fact, your next comment clinches it completely:



    Yeah. I know.

    Actually, you do know what it feels like to be a minority... in this thread.
    And you don't like it.
    You're upset that people might look poorly on you.
    And you're demanding that people look at things from your perspective, understand why you believe what you do.
    And you're upset frustrated when people don't.

    Wow. Now, take those feelings, spin them around to how gay people might feel raised in a het culture, and you'll start to get a glimpse of where they might be coming from.

    I mean, I'm not even gay either... but I can still empathize with where they're coming from.

    On to another point: If you talk to enough gay people, you'll realize that there are many voices in that community that really dislike the whole focus on sex as an identity as well. People are people. They just want to be left to live their lives as people, sexuality is just part of who they are. I listen to them actively say this at support groups, social gatherings, public events. They might be gay, but they're more than being gay.

    But gays aren't the only group that struggles with this. I listened to my black friends tear each other up last weekend about whether they're blacks ("solidarity!") first, or human beings. Christians often feel like a minority in a secular culture, but are they their religion first or just human beings? So many other groups besides gay people struggle with the exact same balancing act. It's not a gay issue as you seem to want to define it, it's a minority issue.

    The majority automatically represses the minorities in a culture. Not even on purpose sometimes, but it's basically what happens. And the minority has to find some way to retain its identity, to hold off the majority's attempts to subsume them and strip them of their unique identity, without letting that battle for identity absorb all of who they are.
    Well the whole point of the thread was to make a logical argument in the name of the majority.. No?
    I am glad I have done my job

    I am a male.. I get told my sexuality is sick and perverse all the time.. So I empathize there. This argument was never personal until people started taking it personally. Sorry I spoke for the majority as I was asked to do.

    Now as for your ascertainment that I have no idea what it feels like to be a minority..
    I present to you Quebec Canada, Where my language is "OUTLAWED" and you are a second class citizen if it is your mother tongue.
    You can't receive services in your language.. even though the national constitution guarantees it.
    You are ignored when you seek assistance or ask for service.
    Hydro electric company employees send hate messages in the comments section of monthly bills to clients with English names.
    We are forced into special schooling, and can only be educated in our language if we meet ridiculous criteria.
    So poor kids are forced to go to school in a language they cant understand, and fall behind.. and are bullied in the school yards.
    I have been heckled on the public transportation for speaking English, I have been physically attacked in the streets for speaking English.
    Try getting a job.. even if your store sells English books only.. You have to conduct your work in French and post only French signs.

    In Quebec .. Something called the language police actually exist

    You can look all this up.. I think I know damn well what a minority feels like and to be singled out for something as stupid as my mother tongue and family name.

    Why do you think I moved to Ontario when I turned 17 ... I couldn't wait to get the hell out of there


    This isn't about my personal feelings.
    I answered the thread as requested.
    Please stop trying to psychoanalyze me Jen, You don't know me at all.

  5. #145
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    A few thoughts on this 'special rights' argument: the reason heterosexual pride parades and events don’t happen is because there isn’t a need for them, not because of intolerance for heterosexual lifestyles. The purpose of Pride parades isn’t to display intolerance to heterosexual lifestyles, it’s a public display for the acceptance of homosexual lifestyles. The reason such a public spectacle is important is to provide support for individuals who may not find it in the microcosms of their everyday lives- so that they may believe there is nothing wrong with homosexuality being a part of their self-actualization. Heterosexual people don’t need this particular kind of support: all they need to do is turn on the TV, pick up a book or newspaper, walk outside their front door with their eyes open or any other number of activities which systematically represent heterosexual lifestyles as a completely acceptable option.

    That’s the difference. It isn’t about being given ‘special rights’, it’s about necessity, it’s serving a benevolent purpose. Claiming it’s about ‘special rights’ is like saying it’s unfair that only diabetics should be prescribed insulin. If such a thing as a heterosexual pride parade or event were organized, it isn’t likely that the people who participate would be people who need it as means for support in being true to themselves and living a heterosexual lifestyle in spite of adversity. It would be more about intolerance than acceptance, and mocking the gay pride movement- because that’s the crowd it would attract, straight people don’t need support in being heterosexual- which is the only the reason such an event might be stopped before it started.

    I think the point several people have tried to make, Arc, is that the parade is there to support those with little/no support in their lives until such a time that there is equality. This isn’t about granting the ‘homosexual culture’ rights that others don’t have, this is about filling needs that the ‘heterosexual culture’ doesn’t have.
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  6. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    What law are you talking about? Anti-discrimination laws? Or are you simply demanding that gays refrain from promoting their acceptance?

    Your response does not make sense within the context of what I said.



    I answered this already. To present themselves in a positive light to the general population. To be able to proclaim it without shame.


    That because it's a non-nonsensical statement.


    I answered this many times already. Harmless exposure leads to acceptance.

    Another nonsensical statement. What does it even mean?
    OK well I am going to agree to disagree with you.. I have no idea what you are talking about either..
    Thanks for engaging with me.. I did enjoy your approach..

  7. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    Well the whole point of the thread was to make a logical argument in the name of the majority.. No?
    I am glad I have done my job

    I am a male.. I get told my sexuality is sick and perverse all the time.. So I empathize there. This argument was never personal until people started taking it personally. Sorry I spoke for the majority as I was asked to do.

    Now as for your ascertainment that I have no idea what it feels like to be a minority..
    I present to you Quebec Canada, Where my language is "OUTLAWED" and you are a second class citizen if it is your mother tongue.
    You can't receive services in your language.. even though the national constitution guarantees it.
    You are ignored when you seek assistance or ask for service.
    Hydro electric company employees send hate messages in the comments section of monthly bills to clients with English names.
    We are forced into special schooling, and can only be educated in our language if we meet ridiculous criteria.
    So poor kids are forced to go to school in a language they cant understand, and fall behind.. and are bullied in the school yards.
    I have been heckled on the public transportation for speaking English, I have been physically attacked in the streets for speaking English.
    Try getting a job.. even if your store sells English books only.. You have to conduct your work in French and post only French signs.

    In Quebec .. Something called the language police actually exist

    You can look all this up.. I think I know damn well what a minority feels like and to be singled out for something as stupid as my mother tongue and family name.

    Why do you think I moved to Ontario when I turned 17 ... I couldn't wait to get the hell out of there

    This isn't about my personal feelings.
    I answered the thread as requested.
    Please stop trying to psychoanalyze me Jen, You don't know me at all.
    Good -- if you know what a minority feels like, then you should be able to apply that knowledge in this situation.
    Your arguments certainly do not seem to take that knowledge into account.

    (But breathe a sigh of relief, I won't press you anymore on the matter.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #148
    Senior Member IndyGhost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    You clearly don't actually believe that.



    How do you differentiate between governing humans and governing human interactions?
    Where does this right to govern human interactions come from?

    More fundamentally, can rights change?
    My bad. Poor wording.

    Government has it's place, yes. Early on, when man was still primitive, early forms of government developed to help evenly distribute food and goods, and to help everyone to get along.

    As government grew, more concepts came in to play.

    However, the fallacy in government came when it began to dissect people into classes... believing one subset of people were allowed special rights and privileges, while another one was held down. Where/when/why did government truly earn this right? Does government have the right to choose who is allowed full privileges and happiness? I don't believe they've earned the right to say equality for this group... but not for this group. Equality should be for all.
    "I don't know a perfect person.
    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
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  9. #149
    Senior Member LEGERdeMAIN's Avatar
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    I don't see how homosexuality in animals can be used to justify gay marriage. We don't justify rape because it occurs naturally, do we? Some species are monogamous, but even they aren't indebted to the State or the Church for their union; they are monogamous without the approval of the community . If we followed the "homosexuality is okay because animals do it" argument to it's conclusion we would be justifying the abolishment of marriage altogether. It's counter-productive for a gay rights advocate to make arguments for gay marriage if the argument is fallacious.
    “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I’m here to tell you that fast is better. I’ve always believed this, in spite of the trouble it’s caused me. Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…”


  10. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    A few thoughts on this 'special rights' argument: the reason heterosexual pride parades and events don’t happen is because there isn’t a need for them, not because of intolerance for heterosexual lifestyles. The purpose of Pride parades isn’t to display intolerance to heterosexual lifestyles, it’s a public display for the acceptance of homosexual lifestyles. The reason such a public spectacle is important is to provide support for individuals who may not find it in the microcosms of their everyday lives- so that they may believe there is nothing wrong with homosexuality being a part of their self-actualization. Heterosexual people don’t need this particular kind of support: all they need to do is turn on the TV, pick up a book or newspaper, walk outside their front door with their eyes open or any other number of activities which systematically represent heterosexual lifestyles as a completely acceptable option.

    That’s the difference. It isn’t about being given ‘special rights’, it’s about necessity, it’s serving a benevolent purpose. Claiming it’s about ‘special rights’ is like saying it’s unfair that only diabetics should be prescribed insulin. If such a thing as a heterosexual pride parade or event were organized, it isn’t likely that the people who participate would be people who need it as means for support in being true to themselves and living a heterosexual lifestyle in spite of adversity. It would be more about intolerance than acceptance, and mocking the gay pride movement- because that’s the crowd it would attract, straight people don’t need support in being heterosexual- which is the only the reason such an event might be stopped before it started.

    I think the point several people have tried to make, Arc, is that the parade is there to support those with little/no support in their lives until such a time that there is equality. This isn’t about granting the ‘homosexual culture’ rights that others don’t have, this is about filling needs that the ‘heterosexual culture’ doesn’t have.
    Well unlike you Zanzi.. they didn't make their point without some kind of personal stuff attached to it.
    If what you are saying is the point people are trying to make to me, then how come when you say it.. I don't feel judged or attacked..
    But only explained something.?

    You make some good points, and you have shut me up, like only you can do.
    No need for attack. no need to feel insulted by my stand..
    Just simple explanation.

    Bless You..

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