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  1. #131
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    Legal does not mean fully accepted.
    Thought police?? A law is designed to control behavior and it gives a person a choice. Telling someone they have to "accept" something
    Is whole different arena.. It's thought control. It's manipulation. Are you sure you want to go there to back up your argument?

    I don't think you het pride parade would get stopped. But it would look silly since it would consist of average everyday people that you already see on the streets.
    Isn't that the whole point of equality? Isn't equality what the gays fought for here? To be considered "average every people that you already see on the streets?"

    So my point is.. Why the parade to single yourself out as different??

    Hypocrisy is illogical .. No one can counter this point as of yet.

    So they have to choose between legalized marriage and the right to hold a parade?
    See the above post

    Two guys kissing in public would not be identifiable as gay?
    Well that would be pretty presumptuous of me, They could be Bi, or Italian

    A man and woman kissing in public might not be straight.

    Is who you fuck really part of your identity???

    But you miss my point it seems.. I don't know most people who are gay, are gay, until they tell me they are gay. And why do I care?
    I have never met a hetero sexual who has ever used this to identify themselves.
    It's just sex.. I don't get it. OK I admit.. I do not see an issue here at all..

    I admit, I feel, using sexuality to define a culture or an identity, is retarded.. Is that what is getting people upset about what I am saying?

    The point was that being expose to something innocuous would lead to acceptance because it can be seen that there are no bad consequences. You cannot say the same for crime. The more you are exposed to it, the more unpleasant it gets. Isn't it obvious?
    No... What you are talking about is, brainwashing.. Thought police.. "Re-education".. It's everything the gay crusade is supposed to be against.

  2. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Rly? You're really making arguments like this?

    And what are your alternatives to going through the system legally?

    The only two I can think of are:

    1. Violence and bloodshed (a la American Civil War, which started as a fight against secession but also had black liberation piggybacking on it)
    2. Leaving everything just the way it is, and minorities who are repressed by the system have no recourse

    A third option is using oratory and long-term attitude shifts and proper living to get people on your side, but that's such a passive approach that it takes a very long time and meanwhile does nothing to make the majority rethink their position. I would say blacks and women both used this third method to make changes occur, but it was accompanied by civil disobedience and working the legal system (which you're bitching about here) to get changes made against the will of some constituents.

    I would say also that gays have definitely used their third method in the US, just like blacks and women, to effect policy change on their behalf, since the early 70's -- it's a two-pronged effort, where continued positive exposure to gay citizens have won over increasing amounts of fellow citizens, plus legislated policies have created forcefully an equal playing field.

    I just find it kind of amazing that you are criticizing a process that has been used legitimately by other demographics for decades or centuries in countries all around the world... and not leaving much in lieu of that process except for violent uprising OR allowing the majority to restrict minorities. Just.... wow. Did I miss another method here?
    Which is fine, until they have achieved legal equality. Do I really have to keep explaining this?
    Read my last post.. maybe that will help.

  3. #133
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IndyAnnaJoan View Post
    My point is that no one has any right to govern another human being.
    You clearly don't actually believe that.

    Quote Originally Posted by IndyAnnaJoan View Post
    No, I'm not an anarchist, as I do believe government has it's place. However, I believe that place is to govern between human interactions, to discourage humans from corruption and to protect from harm.
    How do you differentiate between governing humans and governing human interactions?
    Where does this right to govern human interactions come from?

    More fundamentally, can rights change?
    Take the weakest thing in you
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    And always hold on when you get love
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  4. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    But you miss my point it seems.. I don't know most people who are gay, are gay, until they tell me they are gay. And why do I care? I have never met a hetero sexual who has ever used this to identify themselves. It's just sex.. I don't get it.
    Again, think for a moment:
    Do you think gay people care they're gay either, at first? They don't care... until they start to express/pursue gay preference options, and het society immediately says, "Gross, your sexuality is WRONG, you are perverse/sick."

    It ain't uncommon for kids showing gay preference to be bullied by their friends, antagonized by their parents, and rejected from their families. I've heard more than a few times how parents have told their kids they'd rather they'd be dead than be gay. And you wonder why there is a hardcore response to cling to an aspect of one's being in the face of that onslaught?

    You sound exactly like part of a privileged majority here, unable to momentarily step outside your own life experience to project yourself into someone else's perspective. And, in fact, your next comment clinches it completely:

    OK I admit.. I do not see an issue here at all..
    Yeah. I know.

    Actually, you do know what it feels like to be a minority... in this thread.
    And you don't like it.
    You're upset that people might look poorly on you.
    And you're demanding that people look at things from your perspective, understand why you believe what you do.
    And you're upset frustrated when people don't.

    Wow. Now, take those feelings, spin them around to how gay people might feel raised in a het culture, and you'll start to get a glimpse of where they might be coming from.

    I mean, I'm not even gay either... but I can still empathize with where they're coming from.

    On to another point: If you talk to enough gay people, you'll realize that there are many voices in that community that really dislike the whole focus on sex as an identity as well. People are people. They just want to be left to live their lives as people, sexuality is just part of who they are. I listen to them actively say this at support groups, social gatherings, public events. They might be gay, but they're more than being gay.

    But gays aren't the only group that struggles with this. I listened to my black friends tear each other up last weekend about whether they're blacks ("solidarity!") first, or human beings. Christians often feel like a minority in a secular culture, but are they their religion first or just human beings? So many other groups besides gay people struggle with the exact same balancing act. It's not a gay issue as you seem to want to define it, it's a minority issue.

    The majority automatically represses the minorities in a culture. Not even on purpose sometimes, but it's basically what happens. And the minority has to find some way to retain its identity, to hold off the majority's attempts to subsume them and strip them of their unique identity, without letting that battle for identity absorb all of who they are.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #135
    Senior Member ScorpioINTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IndyAnnaJoan View Post
    My point is that no one has any right to govern another human being. No, I'm not an anarchist, as I do believe government has it's place. However, I believe that place is to govern between human interactions, to discourage humans from corruption and to protect from harm. I don't think it is the governments place to allow one group a set of rights and yet hold them from another. I believe every human being deserves an equal right to happiness, and I don't believe that anyone has the right to keep that from being made possible.
    The problem with that is Governments are inherently corrupt themselves. So long as money exists there will be corruption. I agree governments have gotten way too big and have their hands in too much "non-government stuff".

    I used to be very idealistic too. :-(

    I know this is an emotional issue for some, but I really wish they would stop using it (and abortion) as a political spear. There are so many more important issues that should be considered in an election. Although, being that both sides are two heads of the same beast, it really doesn't matter. Gov't is bought and paid for.

    The sheep argue over dividing issues, while being robbed and raped behind their backs. I don't mean to trivialize the issue or divert the discussion, but it is a political red herring.
    Type 6w5 sp/so/sx I think..I have not fully explored this and just discovered it.

  6. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    i agree that cultures don't deserve special legal rights.

    attempt below to argue your point logically

    my question to your original argument is, does it make sense to forbid equal marriage rights to prevent pressing for additional rights? because it seems like a projective argument - an argument based off the projection that if any society bestows equal marriage rights, then queer people will believe they are entitled to special rights... but allowing one right does not automatically allow others. if there are excesses in terms of special rights in other areas, those should be cut, but that does not mean gay marriage itself is unfair.

    like this:

    This is by far the best response to my point yet..
    I salute you..
    I guess the issue is.. You can't change how people feel no matter what.. only time will do this.. so force feeding it on them will just make some people angry.. It's like Jennifer says.. these things take time..

    But the first step to being "normal" and "equal" is to become what you have fought for.. That would mean the end of gay as a culture or identity, at least in legal terms.
    There should just be a "sexuality" parade open to ALL people, for example.
    Just like marriage should be open to ALL people.
    You can't be equal and special at the same time.. There is nothing defective or handicapping about who you love or have sex with. Does it entitle you to special "needs"?

    Gays will achieve faster acceptance by not making a case for special status around here, if what they want is for everyone to just think of them as normal people.
    This is actually counter productive to their cause of equality.
    OR has it never really been about equality .. but rather, about being special?

  7. #137
    Senior Member Fan.of.Devin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    Rights come from the law of nature and nature's God. This was the very foundation of the USA.
    So were the centuries of slavery and no voting rights for brown people and women part of God's intention?

    The people who argued in favor of those policies certainly thought so.
    Last edited by Fan.of.Devin; 01-23-2011 at 10:52 PM. Reason: chronology... derp
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  8. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fan of Devin View Post
    So were the centuries of slavery and no voting rights for brown people and women part of God's intention?
    No. But, without an appeal to God's law you can't say it was unlawful.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  9. #139
    Senior Member Fan.of.Devin's Avatar
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    Yeah, actually, pretty sure I can.
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  10. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fan of Devin View Post
    Yeah, actually, pretty sure I can.
    Please elaborate.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

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