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  1. #111
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    My whole problem with gay marriage is that I think proponents get stuck in a catch 22. It seems to be very difficult to determine that there is any kind of natural right to gay marriage.
    Um.... step back further:
    Is there any sort of "natural right" to ANY marriage between any gender?
    And if so, can you explain where that right comes from?

    If we're all just playing an arbitrary game on the playground, then we have to agree that no one has any inherent rights to anything, and when one side forces another down, it's just majority overruling minority by sheer power.

    This is starting to sound like, "My arbitrary definition of marriage trumps your arbitrary definition, just because it does!"
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by IndyAnnaJoan View Post
    ^No... I don't think so.

    You wanted to bring in an angle not yet discussed. I said it wasn't a very good one and gave my reason as to why it wasn't very good.

    Perhaps you missed my point?

    But... it's okay if you want to act like a child now. Honestly, it just makes me feel like the bigger person.
    I don't really need a lesson in morality Hun.. that's all.. I am not interested in people's personal feelings on this subject.
    I made a point about equality and democracy.. My point still stands and no one has counter argued it yet.
    Not logically.
    OH and I might mention that the OP who posed the original question .. understood my point .. so Why are people still trying to show me stuff that is not part of the equation?
    My own morality is not part of the equation at all. As I have already stated, I don't care one way or the other.

  3. #113
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IndyAnnaJoan View Post
    Hmm... I typically try to put myself in another persons shoes.

    Imagine being born gay. (And trust me... you're either born that way or you aren't.) Now imagine you truly love someone and have decided you want to spend the rest of your life with that person. Now... imagine most of the society is against your type of love and refuses to recognize the fact that you wish to marry this person. Imagine your love is in the hospital, and you aren't allowed to see them as you aren't considered family... or that you have no legal right to join your life with the person you love and have no legality to claim them in taxes or any of the other benefits that come out of marriage. Not to mention the fact that everyone believes you are just being devious and immoral. Don't you sort of feel like a second class citizen? Doesn't hurt to be told that you don't deserve the same rights heterosexuals are allowed? Doesn't hurt that your love isn't recognized?
    This is exactly the type of emotional argument I'm talking about.

    How do these feelings transfer into universal norms?
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  4. #114
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Um.... step back further:
    Is there any sort of "natural right" to ANY marriage between any gender?
    And if so, can you explain where that right comes from?

    If we're all just playing an arbitrary game on the playground, then we have to agree that no one has any inherent rights to anything, and when one side forces another down, it's just majority overruling minority by sheer power.

    This is starting to sound like, "My arbitrary definition of marriage trumps your arbitrary definition, just because it does!"
    Rights come from the law of nature and nature's God. This was the very foundation of the USA.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  5. #115
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torai View Post
    That's why I said sexy-looking.
    Yes, 'sexy' is how we appear to others and 'sexual' is how we feel ourselves.

  6. #116
    Senior Member IndyGhost's Avatar
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    Because everyone deserves equal rights, regardless of race, creed, class, gender, sexuality. We're all human.
    "I don't know a perfect person.
    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
    -John Green

  7. #117
    Senior Member ScorpioINTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    Why is sitting at a desk for 9 hrs each day not natural? I've come to think of it as almost a given for large segments of human populations. Without desks, our productivity decreases significantly, so why wouldn't a population utilize desks as a means to increase productivity?
    Perhaps I did not chose the best example or you didn't catch the sarcasm, the point was that many things we humans do are not "natural", but we do it anyway. I still don't think sitting at a desk all day is natural or healthy though, but necessary nonetheless. Productive certainly, but so is slavery. Just because something isn't considered natural, doesn't mean we need a law against it. Now you get it?
    Type 6w5 sp/so/sx I think..I have not fully explored this and just discovered it.

  8. #118
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IndyAnnaJoan View Post
    Because everyone deserves equal rights, regardless of race, creed, class, gender, sexuality. We're all human.
    What's your authority for that statement?
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  9. #119
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    Rights come from the law of nature and nature's God. This was the very foundation of the USA.
    Wow. I can't believe you just stepped right in and admitted that your entire stance is based on your personal religious beliefs, which means it's essentially your opinion and not actually a "natural right" of any sort. It's only got as much weight as anyone else's beliefs of what a "natural right" should be -- to whit, that some believe marriage for anyone of any gender is a "natural right." Why is your definition of "natural right" more trustworthy than theirs?

    I think I also explained elsewhere that homosexual instinctive seems built right into various species' natural conduct. If there is a law of nature here in your post, it's one of religious origin and not one of observational origin.

    "USA" comment: Argument from authority/tradition.
    So same-sex marriage is morally okay and a natural law, if it's in a new country's charter?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #120
    Senior Member IndyGhost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    Rights come from the law of nature and nature's God. This was the very foundation of the USA.
    So, basically you're telling me that you believe that homosexuality is deviant behavior?

    Science has shown that this is not so... homosexuals are born gay. God created these people, then, right? Just the way they are?
    "I don't know a perfect person.
    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
    -John Green

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