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  1. #101
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    I do not expect you to understand me anymore than I expect me to grow a third arm by next November.
    If it's anything like having a third leg, trust me, it's not as great as it sounds.

    ba dum

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by IndyAnnaJoan View Post
    Well... your point wasn't very good, though, was it?

    Plus, you had a lot of very negative things to say about homosexual culture, what with their big parades that apparently violate heterosexual rights.

    I don't even know how one persons celebration is a detriment to anothers rights. I've never felt my heterosexual rights taken away from me due to homosexuals expressing their own desire for equality. I'm pretty sure they don't mind me being heterosexual... I have several gay and lesbian friends... and nope... not a single one makes me feel as though it's wrong to be straight, or wrong to date members of the opposite sex, or wrong to hope to have children, etc. etc.

    I suppose there are the occasional "breeder" jokes... but we've got gay jokes, too.

    My favorite local bar used to have gay nights... and gay nights aren't exclusive only to homosexuals. Rather, it was a call of weekly celebration for the gay members of the community to come out and dance. And don't think that just as many heterosexuals didn't come in to join as well. I'm pretty sure the homosexuals didn't care. And honestly... I'm sure they probably loved the fact that so many heterosexuals also came out to support their right to be who they are.
    Completely missed my point.. Making "anti gay" accusations.. Boring.. next??

  3. #103
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Speaking of being arbitrary...

    My whole problem with gay marriage is that I think proponents get stuck in a catch 22. It seems to be very difficult to determine that there is any kind of natural right to gay marriage. Without the appeal to a natural right I think proponents lose all moral authority on the question. They can then turn to other sociological arguments about the benefits of gay marriage or the need for equality, but who cares if we've thrown out natural rights and with them the meaning behind terms like justice and equality. Once we ignore natural rights all policy exclusively becomes exercises of power devoid of morality. So all arguments become equal and each person is merely trying to exert power over someone else.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    If it's anything like having a third leg, trust me, it's not as great as it sounds.

    ba dum
    It's not me you need to explain that too. Tell it the person I made that comment to.. she's the one who is interested in that subject.

  5. #105
    Senior Member Fan.of.Devin's Avatar
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    Gay marriage?
    I'm against it.



    ...
    But, I'm against straight marriage too, so...

    De-institutionalize marriage entirely, and replace it with civil unions, problem solved.
    Let churches fight over "what marriage really is", I frankly give a shit either way.

    In the end, homosexual couples deserve to be just as miserable as straight couples.
    INTP 4w5 SX/SP
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  6. #106
    Senior Member IndyGhost's Avatar
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    ^No... I don't think so.

    You wanted to bring in an angle not yet discussed. I said it wasn't a very good one and gave my reason as to why it wasn't very good.

    Perhaps you missed my point?

    But... it's okay if you want to act like a child now. Honestly, it just makes me feel like the bigger person.

    --------
    Directed to Arclights comment. Thread moved too quick for me.
    "I don't know a perfect person.
    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
    -John Green

  7. #107
    Senior Member IndyGhost's Avatar
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    Good grief this thread moves fast!
    "I don't know a perfect person.
    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
    -John Green

  8. #108
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fan of Devin View Post
    But, I'm against straight marriage too, so...

    De-institutionalize marriage entirely, and replace it with civil unions, problem solved.
    Let churches fight over "what marriage really is", I frankly give a shit either way.
    I'm cool with civil unions for everyone, and let the religious institutions define what sort of union is valid in their eyes, as far as their proponents and members go.

    In the end, homosexual couples deserve to be just as miserable as straight couples.
    That's the spirit.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #109
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I typically don't engage you much on your comments publicly simply because (imo) you operate pretty rational from your initial assumptions.

    If I agreed with your assumption that the essence of marriage was the union of male and female, then I would agree with your conclusions as well.

    I just think your assumption is an arbitrary one, so I cannot agree with the exclusive conclusion you draw from it.
    Even "male" and "female" are to some degree arbitrary... and if you're going to root them in biological terms, then biological variations of gender (which are well-documented) throw the whole thing out of whack for me.

    I know in that case you still argue "ideal norms" (i.e., even if there are variations of gender, you would probably state that male and female are still the obvious ideals and the rest obvious deviations), based on particular explicit spiritual principles, whereas I just am growing more and more to view it as variety.

    (BTW, if I misstated your position, please feel free to correct; that was not my intent. My point is basically just that we disagree on initial assumptions, thus we reach different conclusions.)
    Well yes, this gets into what I mentioned about particulars and universals being related. Nominalism claims that there are no universals, only particulars, and that the terms we use for universals are largely arbitrary. This seems to be the position you're arguing from no? By contrast I'm a Realist in asserting that universals are real.

    As far as gender goes; I would first like to quote from John Macmurrary: "We are not organisms, but persons."

    Personhood is primarily an ethical and moral concept, not a biological one. Biology certainly forms an important, but ultimately secondary, component to moral and ethical considerations. This applies very much to gender as well.

    I would love to elaborate further upon this, but I'll have to continue this later.

  10. #110
    Senior Member IndyGhost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    Speaking of being arbitrary...

    My whole problem with gay marriage is that I think proponents get stuck in a catch 22. It seems to be very difficult to determine that there is any kind of natural right to gay marriage. Without the appeal to a natural right I think proponents lose all moral authority on the question. They can then turn to other sociological arguments about the benefits of gay marriage or the need for equality, but who cares if we've thrown out natural rights and with them the meaning behind terms like justice and equality. Once we ignore natural rights all policy exclusively becomes exercises of power devoid of morality. So all arguments become equal and each person is merely trying to exert power over someone else.
    Hmm... I typically try to put myself in another persons shoes.

    Imagine being born gay. (And trust me... you're either born that way or you aren't.) Now imagine you truly love someone and have decided you want to spend the rest of your life with that person. Now... imagine most of the society is against your type of love and refuses to recognize the fact that you wish to marry this person. Imagine your love is in the hospital, and you aren't allowed to see them as you aren't considered family... or that you have no legal right to join your life with the person you love and have no legality to claim them in taxes or any of the other benefits that come out of marriage. Not to mention the fact that everyone believes you are just being devious and immoral. Don't you sort of feel like a second class citizen? Doesn't hurt to be told that you don't deserve the same rights heterosexuals are allowed? Doesn't hurt that your love isn't recognized?
    "I don't know a perfect person.
    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
    -John Green

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