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  1. #91
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    The essence of marriage is the union of male and female.
    That is where many disagree.

  2. #92
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    The prohibition on same-sex marriage, then, should be considered ridiculous.
    Glad we agree.
    I never disagreed on this..
    I was asked to give a logical reason why gay marriage should not be permitted.
    I gave one. which is that, even when equal status is achieved, gays still want to be considered a "culture" and different, based on nothing more than sexuality.
    Which is fine.. accept then if sexuality defines a culture, and a culture deserves special rights.
    Then the culture of heterosexuality was violated in the name of equal rights for homosexuality.
    It's hypocrisy.

    No one ever asked me if I was for or against gay marriage .. or if I even care.
    People just assumed that I because I had an argument that challenged a lot of beliefs
    That I was making some stand that I wasn't..
    My point simply went beyond the question which the OP had tried to limit, by getting around those limitations by asking even bigger questions that encompass all of society and not just it's subclasses.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    That is where many disagree.
    No doubt they do.

  4. #94
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    What do you believe is the purpose of marriage, Peguy?

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    How does anyone debate for or against gay marriage when marriage itself isn't a rational choice? With the advent of birth control, the relationship between marriage and children can't be considered a logical progression.

    The only argument that is logical, is to question why it's legal to discriminate against individuals based on bedroom preferences. No one is getting hurt with same sex relationships beyond the normal amount of relationship drama and the sensitivities of the control freak puritannicals.
    Best answer ITT.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    I was asked to give a logical reason why gay marriage should not be permitted.
    I gave one. which is that, even when equal status is achieved, gays still want to be considered a "culture" and different, based on nothing more than sexuality.
    That's not a logical reason. It's not any kind of reason.

    BDSM is a "culture", does that preclude BDSMers from getting married?
    Really, you are talking nonsense.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  6. #96
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    The essence of marriage is the union of male and female. Certainly the quantity of males and females being united can and have changed(polygamy/monogamy), but those are accidents to the central essence. With same-sex marriage, you're changing the essence of marriage itself. I notice often many arguments made in favor of gay-marriage are based upon this fundamental confusing of essences with accidents; which is related(if not identical) to the confusion of the existence of universals with those of particulars as well. Gotta love metaphysics.
    I typically don't engage you much on your comments publicly simply because (imo) you operate pretty rational from your initial assumptions.

    If I agreed with your assumption that the essence of marriage was the union of male and female, then I would agree with your conclusions as well.

    I just think your assumption is an arbitrary one, so I cannot agree with the exclusive conclusion you draw from it.
    Even "male" and "female" are to some degree arbitrary... and if you're going to root them in biological terms, then biological variations of gender (which are well-documented) throw the whole thing out of whack for me.

    I know in that case you still argue "ideal norms" (i.e., even if there are variations of gender, you would probably state that male and female are still the obvious ideals and the rest obvious deviations), based on particular explicit spiritual principles, whereas I just am growing more and more to view it as variety.

    (BTW, if I misstated your position, please feel free to correct; that was not my intent. My point is basically just that we disagree on initial assumptions, thus we reach different conclusions.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    What do you believe is the purpose of marriage, Peguy?
    The union of two souls and the procreation and rearing of children. The latter is why social recognition is bestowed upon marriage, since the upbrining of children is of vital importance to the longevity of any society. No children = no future for said society simply put. That's why the state has an interest in defending marriage in the traditional sense, the family is the basic building block of society. There certainly are cases where couples are unable to procreate. As I explained earlier, this does not change the essence of marriage or the sexual act. In social terms, these are recognized as exceptions to the rule.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salome View Post
    Best answer ITT.

    That's not a logical reason. It's not any kind of reason.

    BDSM is a "culture", does that preclude BDSMers from getting married?
    Really, you are talking nonsense.
    Darling, you are have one of the most polarized minds I have ever come across.. I do not expect you to understand me anymore than I expect me to grow a third arm by next November.

    It's no contest.

    Buzz off.

  9. #99
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    I do not expect you to understand me anymore than I expect me to grow a third arm by next November.
    Even that would make more sense than your arguments in this thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  10. #100
    Senior Member IndyGhost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    I never disagreed on this..
    I was asked to give a logical reason why gay marriage should not be permitted.
    I gave one. which is that, even when equal status is achieved, gays still want to be considered a "culture" and different, based on nothing more than sexuality.
    Which is fine.. accept then if sexuality defines a culture, and a culture deserves special rights.
    Then the culture of heterosexuality was violated in the name of equal rights for homosexuality.
    It's hypocrisy.

    No one ever asked me if I was for or against gay marriage .. or if I even care.
    People just assumed that I because I had an argument that challenged a lot of beliefs
    That I was making some stand that I wasn't..
    My point simply went beyond the question which the OP had tried to limit, by getting around those limitations by asking even bigger questions that encompass all of society and not just it's subclasses.
    Well... your point wasn't very good, though, was it?

    Plus, you had a lot of very negative things to say about homosexual culture, what with their big parades that apparently violate heterosexual rights.

    I don't even know how one persons celebration is a detriment to anothers rights. I've never felt my heterosexual rights taken away from me due to homosexuals expressing their own desire for equality. I'm pretty sure they don't mind me being heterosexual... I have several gay and lesbian friends... and nope... not a single one makes me feel as though it's wrong to be straight, or wrong to date members of the opposite sex, or wrong to hope to have children, etc. etc.

    I suppose there are the occasional "breeder" jokes... but we've got gay jokes, too.

    My favorite local bar used to have gay nights... and gay nights aren't exclusive only to homosexuals. Rather, it was a call of weekly celebration for the gay members of the community to come out and dance. And don't think that just as many heterosexuals didn't come in to join as well. I'm pretty sure the homosexuals didn't care. And honestly... I'm sure they probably loved the fact that so many heterosexuals also came out to support their right to be who they are.
    "I don't know a perfect person.
    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
    -John Green

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