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  1. #51
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yenom View Post
    ENTJ women, bashing Amy Chua is bashing yourselves. I don't get whats so difficult to understand about this.

    ENTJ women=Tiger moms
    Tiger moms=ENTJ women

    It is just an extreme example of J parenting.
    You have been refuted, yet you continue with this nonsense. I'm not sure if you are mentally handicapped or you are just a troll.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #52
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    Originally posted by Yenom
    ENTJ women are evil because I said so.

    I like to blatenly stereotype ENTJ women as Tiger moms
    I have no proof or reason for this.

    Trolling.
    Your post speaks for itself.

  3. #53
    Alexander the Terrible yenom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    Totally agree with fidelia's assessment.

    I do think Western parents place far too much emphasis on building self-esteem that hasn't been earned in any way. I see the results in the generation I teach. So many students who do average or below average work that believe they deserve top grades. Faculty essentially being asked to be more understanding, to "enable their success," to dumb down and not have high standards. It's hard to teach someone that is used to getting by with little to no effort.
    The problem is not Western or Eastern. Its dysfunctional parenting. Amy Chua says she represented chinese parenting, but thankfully I don't have that kind of bitch as a mother.

    A child is expected to succeed and be the first at everything they do, otherwise they are punished to for their failures.
    Why should a child be made to satisfy your twisted values.

    You say its a compettitve world out there, and everyone should work hard. If that is so, the most crucial skill you should teach a child is how to survive. You are forcing your children to overexcel and overperform in education, which is basically meant nothing in this world. I heard many successful people who underperformed in educations. Also, You are also destroying your child's self esteem if they fail to meet your expectations. You can't be the best in evertything you do. These shit values are archtypical of NTJ mentality.
    The fear of poverty turns people into slaves of money.

    "In this Caesar there are many Mariuses"~Sulla

    Conquer your inner demons first before you conquer the world.

  4. #54
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yenom View Post
    You are also destroying your child's self esteem if they fail to meet your expectations. You can't be the best in evertything you do. These shit values are archtypical of NTJ mentality.
    More nonsense. You keep making claims, but you are not supporting your claims with any reasoning or evidence.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #55
    / nonsequitur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yenom View Post
    If Amy Chua is not an ENTJ, I'll go drop my pants and walk down the street.

    BTW, I am Chinese
    I am Chinese too, and my ENFJ and IxTJ parents used the same methods.

    I'd say that it's less a matter of type and more a matter of cultural expectations. My Fe-primary mother believed that by social standards, she was doing the right thing by all of her kids.

    My Chinese upbringing:
    Instead of simply grounding me or telling me off, I got physically hit. If I missed an A by 10 marks, I got hit 10 times. It was something that I grew to expect, and it was supposed to make me work harder to avoid being hit. Of course, the fact that I was taking 5 subjects in primary school and had 4 major examinations a year meant that mathematically, I got hit a lot.

    I was forced into lots of classes - mental arithmetic (I still can do it after years of classes), art classes, piano classes, swimming classes, extra-curricular tuition classes, so on and so forth. Whatever Amy Chua describes is practically my upbringing. My parents and Aunts and Uncles compared our grades with our cousins' and we were continually told "why can't you work as hard as X?". My ENFP brother, at 12, after obtaining a score that didn't allow him to enter his top-choice secondary school in the national examinations (he was still able to enter one of the top schools), was told that he was a disappointment. This resulted in him hiding under his blankets to cry for hours.

    I have no doubt that some of what I went through as a kid allowed me to become smart, motivated, highly critical and independent. But as far as self-confidence goes, I have major anxiety problems because my self-esteem is so low. I cannot talk to my family about anything that matters to me and I am emotionally retarded. My psychiatrist thinks that I should drop my mental expectations and the "familial voice" that I continually hear in my head, proclaiming me to be a disappointment. But that's a lot easier said than done.

    Amy Chua also described how she had to soften her approach after her second daughter (I'm also the 2nd daughter) openly rebelled, or risk losing her daughter. My mother never did, and she did lose her daughter in all the ways that matter. I've already bought the book - haven't had the time to read it yet, but helping myself to understand my parents is the only thing that I can do towards helping to mend the rift. They won't change, and I can never be "good enough".

  6. #56
    Klingon Warrior Princess Patches's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yenom View Post
    I heard many successful people who underperformed in educations. Also, You are also destroying your child's self esteem if they fail to meet your expectations. You can't be the best in evertything you do. These shit values are archtypical of NTJ mentality.
    I don't have statistics to back this up, but I'm willing to bet that there are more successful people who went to Ivy League colleges than there are successful people who underperformed in education. I'm not refuting your claim that it's possible to excel without perfect grades.... But if a mother wants to give her children the best 'chances' to excel in life, why is it so malicious of her to push those standards? How is it a shit value to want your children to have a 'leg up' in life?

    There is nothing "shit" about her intentions.

    You are forcing your children to overexcel and overperform in education, which is basically meant nothing in this world.
    It means you get to go to college for free. it means you get to go to more prestigious colleges. In turn that can lead to a higher paying position right out of college. I'm not sure what country you're from, but in the States without ample scholarships it is FUCKING HARD to make it through grad school without scholarship money. Either that, or you leave school with 5 figures worth of debt.

    My family doesn't make a lot of money. Being able to finish my bachelor's degree without ever paying a cent in college tuition saved my ass. I only had that luxury because of my 'aggressive bitch' parents forcing their 'shit values' on me. And I am eternally grateful to them for that.
    “Everybody has a secret world inside of them. All of the people of the world, I mean everybody. No matter how dull and boring they are on the outside, inside
    them they've all got unimaginable, magnificent, wonderful, stupid, amazing worlds. Not just one world. Hundreds of them. Thousands maybe.” -Neil Gaiman

    ~

  7. #57
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    The thing is I've never really met a loser Asian. It could be just the circles I move in, but if they don't own several bussinesses, and three houses, and a ridiculously expensive car, they'er not really Asian. I mean some of the people I have worked have busted thier butts to provide for thier kids, and some of those kids truly do have amazing achievements under thier belts. In some respects, it's only fair. It's not healthy(in a western sense) but, parents sacrifice alot, some times I think Asain parents sacrifice everything for thier kids, including thier own wants and desires, and funnel all that into their kids.
    I'm not saying it wrong or right....it's different. They don't limit thier kids, the same way westerners can do...
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
    Real life awaits and she is a demanding mistress.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  8. #58
    / nonsequitur's Avatar
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    I decided to revisit this thread because I've finally read the book.

    The end is touching and although I wouldn't say that it's a "great" book, it's definitely a unique book in the sense that you can see the plain neuroticism of Amy Chua that's infused in every word. It's a little bit like reading a perfectionistic Asian Woody Allen as he sees the world and if he was raising kids.

    I think the book has definitely been mis-represented in the media as one of "Asian parents are better". In fact, if you read the book, particularly the end, you find that the author's views have changed quite a bit. Not her attitudes towards parenting, but definitely her approach has changed. I really liked it, specifically how she came to become a more consultative person, and how her kids responded in ways that were honest - not ways that they thought would please her.

    This passage in particular, I wish my own parents came around to understanding:
    Quote Originally Posted by book chapter 33
    I wasn't bluffing. I'd always engaged in brinkmanship with Lulu, but this time I was serious. I'm still not exactly sure why. Maybe I finally allowed myself to admire Lulu's immovable strength for what it was, even if I bitterly disagreed with her choices. Or maybe it was Katrin. Watching her struggle and seeing what became important to her in those desperate months shook things up for all of us.

    It could also have been my mother. To me, she'll always be the quintessential Chinese mother. Growing up, nothing was ever good enough for her. ("You say you got first place, but actually you only tied for first, right?") She used to practice piano with Cindy three hours a day until the teacher gently told her that they'd hit a limit. Even after I became a professor and invited her to some of my public lectures, she always offered painfully accurate criticisms while everyone else was telling me what a good job I'd done. ("You get too excited and talk too fast. Try to stay cool, and you'll be better.") Yet my own Chinese mother had been warning me for a long time that something wasn't working with Lulu. "Every child is different," she said. "You have to adjust, Amy. Look what happened to your father," she added ominously.

    So - about my father. I guess it's time to come clean with something. I'd always told Jed, myself, and everyone else that the ultimate proof of the superiority of Chinese parenting is how the children end up feeling about their parents. Despite their parents' brutal demands, verbal abuse, and disregard for their children's desires, Chinese kids end up adoring and respecting their parents and wanting to care for them in their old age. From the beginning, Jed had always asked, "What about your dad, Amy?" I'd never had a good answer.

    My father was the black sheep in his family. His mother disfavoured him and treated him unfairly. In his household, comparisons among the children were common, and my father - the fourth of six - was always on the short end of the stick. He wasn't interested in business like the rest of his family. He loved science and fast cars; at age eight, he built a radio from scratch. Compared to his siblings, my father was the family outlaw, risk-taking and rebellious. To put it mildly, his mother didn't respect his choices, value his individualism, or worry about his self-esteem - all those Western cliches. The result was that my father hated his family - found it suffocating and undermining - and as soon as he had a chance her moved as far away as he could, never once looking back.

    What my father's story illustrates is something I suppose I never wanted to think about. When Chinese parenting succeeds, there's nothing like it. But it doesn't always succeed. For my father it hadn't. He barely spoke to his mother and never thought about her except in anger. By the end of her life, my father's family was almost dead to him.

    I couldn't lose Lulu. Nothing was more important. So I did the most Western thing imaginable: I gave her the choice. I told her that she could quit the violin if she wanted and do what she liked instead, which at the time was to play tennis.

    At first, Lulu assumed it was a trap. Over the years, the two of us had played so many games of chicken and engaged in such elaborate forms of psychological warfare that she was naturally suspicious. But when Lulu realised that I was sincere, she surprised me.

    "I don't want to quit," she said. "I love the violin. I would never give it up."

    "Oh please," I said, shaking my head. "Let's not go in circles again."

    "I don't want to quit violin," Lulu repeated. "I just don't want to be so intense about it. It's not the main thing I want to do with my life. You picked it, not me."

  9. #59
    Senior Member chachamaru's Avatar
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    I loved this book.

    My parents had a similar breaking experience... except it was when I was in the 4th grade, contemplating suicide. Then, they let up.
    a cat is fine too

  10. #60
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nonsequitur View Post
    I decided to revisit this thread because I've finally read the book.

    The end is touching and although I wouldn't say that it's a "great" book, it's definitely a unique book in the sense that you can see the plain neuroticism of Amy Chua that's infused in every word. It's a little bit like reading a perfectionistic Asian Woody Allen as he sees the world and if he was raising kids.

    I think the book has definitely been mis-represented in the media as one of "Asian parents are better". In fact, if you read the book, particularly the end, you find that the author's views have changed quite a bit. Not her attitudes towards parenting, but definitely her approach has changed. I really liked it, specifically how she came to become a more consultative person, and how her kids responded in ways that were honest - not ways that they thought would please her.

    This passage in particular, I wish my own parents came around to understanding:
    Thanks for posting the excerpt. It was Chinese parenting in a nutshell. Nothing is ever good enough, choice is not an option and you must respect and revere your parents even if they're retards. No wonder my middle finger reflexes are so well honed!

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