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Thread: Feminism

  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by GZA View Post
    I saw a show on TV saying that the reason women don't make as much as men is because there arn't as many women in the top positions of big businesses. Women now get more education than men, but there are still more men in the CEO positions, causing the income disparity.
    Women Entrepreneurs Face Venture Capital Gender Gap, - Inc. Article

    SBA: Office of Advocacy - Study Examines Linkages Between Gender And New Venture Performance

    Women Entrepreneurs

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  2. #12
    Senior Member wedekit's Avatar
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    I wanted to add that I have a positive view of Feminism; but those who take it a little to far (aka Urban Dictionary: femenazi) do tend to make use of methods end up being oppressive to others. However, from their extreme viewpoint they are being oppressed, so they are merely returning the favor.
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  3. #13
    Resident Snot-Nose GZA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wedekit View Post
    Well, if you are more interested equality, have you ever looked into masculism?

    Masculism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    I'm not one, but I found the idea interesting. It would be interesting to see the two different -isms combine into "equalitism" or something, lol. There are just so many things that are unequal between genders. These particular things are actually unequal/unfair in my opinion:

    - Men forced to risk their lives in male-only conscripted military service.
    (I used to enjoy watching girls' reactions when I would bring this up and say that because women aren't required to fight for their country they shouldn't be allowed to vote in it; thought it might not be what I personally believe, it is interesting to see them argue back about it)

    - Male genital mutilation (circumcision) being socially accepted or even advocated as opposed to female genital mutilation.
    (I really don't understand the point of this one)

    - Equality in adoption rights (several states allow single women to adopt children but not single men).
    (Yeah, this is pretty stupid)

    - Biases in the justice system against men, such as higher incarceration rates and longer sentences for men (compared to women) for the same crimes.
    (This is ridiculous as well)


    - Cathy Young, who does not consider herself a "masculinist," argues that in rape cases, "the dogma that "women never lie" means that there is, for all intents and purposes, no presumption of innocence for the defendant".
    (Very true; Lizzie Borden, anyone? lol)


    - Men pay higher premiums for auto, health, life and disability insurance, though other forms of discrimination are prohibited.
    (I've always wondered about this. My assumption is that there is statistical significance for men having more accidents than women, though I don't see why this constitutes anything since statistics never really "prove" anything, only suggest.)

    -
    Bias in health concerns; for example, more advertisements and awareness for breast cancer than prostate cancer, though the latter kills more men than the former kills women.
    (There's any interesting fact to know!)

    And the list goes on. I just thought I should point out that there is plenty of inequality in relation to men as well. I find it hard to understand because I don't really see a huge difference in men in women in general. I only see the differences that society labels as the "norm", which is highly subjective depending on who you ask and how you look at it.
    Yah, we debated some of those things in my law class. I still don't like how because I'm a young man I'm assumed to be a bad driver na dhave to pay higher fees. They could just compensate for the price by making the fee higher but equal for both genders in the age group but noo :steam: But whatever.

  4. #14
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GZA View Post
    What are your thoughts on feminism? What kind of idealogies do you like/dislike?
    I think it's a good reform movement, as I don't feel that it's reasonable for society to demand certain things from people on that particular basis. That they already have legal equality doesn't mean they've really been given social equality. Just look at the kind of ridiculous scrutiny and exclusion technically inclined girls face, especially in parts of the northeastern US (I don't know why it's worse there, but it seems to be). I think it still has a long way to go in some places, but is very much realized in others... it's spread unevenly, but it seems like generally the further west you go, the less traditional pressure you see, probably because it was settled later on.
    I've heard some people say that feminism is irrelevant in modern society. [...] I personally think thats pretty much true, by the way.
    Well, I disagree, as I said above. There are factions (especially among religious groups) that still seek to restore the old order and think that women need to be "kept in their place." I don't know if there's some kind of predisposition for women to fit that role more often, but I do know there are exceptions who fit other roles better, and don't think they should be pressured as a result of that.
    And lastly, I've heard people say that feminism has gotten to the point it oppresses men. What are your opinions on that?
    I believe they're called "masculists" or something, and I think that's mostly false, except maybe for the draft issue. Considering how laws and everything are set up now, I do think it is unfair that a man can be drafted, but a woman can't... that really speaks to the old value system. Personally, I think the draft should be abolished altogether, because I don't think it's fair to force people to serve in the military against their will.

  5. #15
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    My thoughts on feminism:

    It entirely depends on how far they go. Should females be able to get jobs? Yes. But don't simultaneously say that you can't hit them, and they should have the opportunity to be infantry.

    My biggest problem with feminism is that many feminists don't want to make men and women equal...they want to make them the same. Men are not women. Don't tell me that men and women should be treated the exact same in all circumstances, because that is bull shit. Saying that women should be treated exactly like men not only makes men appear greater than they are. It also downplays female strengths. It's wrong if a woman can't get a job? Yes. Is it wrong if a woman chooses to stay at home and be a mom? No. Women have strengths that men do not have and men have strengths that women do not have.
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  6. #16
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wedekit View Post
    - Men forced to risk their lives in male-only conscripted military service.
    (I used to enjoy watching girls' reactions when I would bring this up and say that because women aren't required to fight for their country they shouldn't be allowed to vote in it; thought it might not be what I personally believe, it is interesting to see them argue back about it)
    That is an example of a self imposed inequality.

    - Male genital mutilation (circumcision) being socially accepted or even advocated as opposed to female genital mutilation.
    (I really don't understand the point of this one)
    True as long as you don't live in Africa. Also circumcision has been found to decrease the transmission of STDs, namely HIV. Also, female genital mutilation causes serious health problems throughout life, whereas circumcision does not.

    - Equality in adoption rights (several states allow single women to adopt children but not single men).
    (Yeah, this is pretty stupid)
    Heterosexual men are statistically responsible for over 90% of child molestation. I think that one might actually have some justification to it.

    - Biases in the justice system against men, such as higher incarceration rates and longer sentences for men (compared to women) for the same crimes.
    (This is ridiculous as well)
    Men are also far more likely to be imprisoned and to be recidivists.

    - Cathy Young, who does not consider herself a "masculinist," argues that in rape cases, "the dogma that "women never lie" means that there is, for all intents and purposes, no presumption of innocence for the defendant".
    (Very true; Lizzie Borden, anyone? lol)
    Ok.

    - Men pay higher premiums for auto, health, life and disability insurance, though other forms of discrimination are prohibited.
    (I've always wondered about this. My assumption is that there is statistical significance for men having more accidents than women, though I don't see why this constitutes anything since statistics never really "prove" anything, only suggest.)
    Statistics show correlation. Despite not being able to show a cause and effect relationship between two variables, they do prove a relationship.

    Bias in health concerns; for example, more advertisements and awareness for breast cancer than prostate cancer, though the latter kills more men than the former kills women.
    [I](There's any interesting fact to know!)
    Incomparable. Most men, if they live long enough will develop some form of prostate cancer. Breast cancer also affects both men and women, whereas prostate cancer only affects men.

    And the list goes on. I just thought I should point out that there is plenty of inequality in relation to men as well. I find it hard to understand because I don't really see a huge difference in men in women in general. I only see the differences that society labels as the "norm", which is highly subjective depending on who you ask and how you look at it.
    Men still hold the place of privilege, though I will admit, there are some inequalities, but most of these have been traditionally self imposed.
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  7. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    The thing you have to remember is that historically, people have used language to subjugate and oppress others for centuries. Consider the words, "barbarians", "primitives", and "savages" which have been used to describe anyone considered less developed since the Greeks all the way to the American pioneers to even modern day. When you grow up being socialized to the idea of a "mailman" it's an unconscious association they are making between a mail carrier and masculinity. Language has a powerful influence over how we percieve and interpret the world around us, as well as the possibilities and opportunities that are open to us.
    I agree with Kiddo here. Language and thought are inextricably linked together. It may seem a bit extreme to want to use gender neutral language, but there are times when it is more accurate to do so.

    If you don't know the gender of the mail carriers, would it be correct to call them mailmen? I am not talking about political correctness here but cognitive correctness.

    Same goes for police officers, firefighters, etc. Why is it grammatically OK to be wrong in this sense only? I think it deserves the same attention as any part of grammar. I tend not to pay much attention to spelling and punctuation, but in terms of being accurate about what one is describing...
    gender neutrality seems like a great example.

    If we actually know that the fireman we are referring to is a man, and the policewoman we are referring to is a woman, then I see no assumptions embedded in the language. But otherwise, why assume our firefighters are men?

    I think strongly trying to prevent the creation of gender neutral terms can indeed lead to cap some of the gender neutrality in reality we are seeking. Why else would we oppose (as a group) this part of being accurate with our language?


    Also, I still don't like "police officer," since "officer" has rank related connotations, so "cop" is actually my preferred term.

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  8. #18
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    I'm a matriarchist and female supremacist. Which is not to say that I think women are infallible or anything, it's just that most men are criminally insane. Legally everyone who is over 18 and a legal citizen should be completely equal under the law with all the same rights and protections. But men should not be allowed to vote or hold political office.

    Men have pretty well made a mess of things, a few hundred years of female rule should set the planet straight. Someone will probably say, "Women are human too, things won't be any different if they run the world." Bullshit it won't be different, women don't suffer from testosterone poisoning.



    Frauen über alles

  9. #19
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    I agree with Kiddo here. Language and thought are inextricably linked together. It may seem a bit extreme to want to use gender neutral language, but there are times when it is more accurate to do so.

    If you don't know the gender of the mail carriers, would it be correct to call them mailmen? I am not talking about political correctness here but cognitive correctness.

    Same goes for police officers, firefighters, etc. Why is it grammatically OK to be wrong in this sense only? I think it deserves the same attention as any part of grammar. I tend not to pay much attention to spelling and punctuation, but in terms of being accurate about what one is describing...
    gender neutrality seems like a great example.

    If we actually know that the fireman we are referring to is a man, and the policewoman we are referring to is a woman, then I see no assumptions embedded in the language. But otherwise, why assume our firefighters are men?

    I think strongly trying to prevent the creation of gender neutral terms can indeed lead to cap some of the gender neutrality in reality we are seeking. Why else would we oppose (as a group) this part of being accurate with our language?


    Also, I still don't like "police officer," since "officer" has rank related connotations, so "cop" is actually my preferred term.
    I would expect that the vast majority are men, though. If you have a job in which 5% are women (not speaking about mailmen...just a hypothetical example), then there's no point in making gender neutral statements. Plus, it's a pain in the ass. "men" is far more easy to say than "person"
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

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    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    I would expect that the vast majority are men, though.
    That is an interesting expectation to have. Do you suppose that is alway true, no matter what community you live in?

    If you have a job in which 5% are women (not speaking about mailmen...just a hypothetical example), then there's no point in making gender neutral statements.
    The drawback of that thinking is that it sets the precedent that it is a "male only" profession.

    Plus, it's a pain in the ass. "men" is far more easy to say than "person"
    Oh no! A whole nother syllable.
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