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  1. #51
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    There goes the religious right again, calling abortion murder. I really hope this one instance of an abortion doctor being irresponsible doesn't shift public opinion over to the pro-life camp and make all abortions illegal.

    We have such a large population, anyway... why are people going to such great lengths to interfere in abortions? It's not as though we won't have plenty of babies born to allow population growth either way.

  2. #52
    Senior Member IndyGhost's Avatar
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    ^Sort of have a similar mindset.

    I'm a proponent of abortion. Reason being, our population is so d*mn huge, and there are so many people who raise children that are completely unfit to do the job right. Why force those people to raise children they will not be attentive to, or will not be afford to care for properly? In this day and age, where humans are multiplying to the point of depleting a planet's resources, I think accidental pregnancy should be an arena we are more kind towards and allow the mother the make the right decision for herself.
    "I don't know a perfect person.
    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
    -John Green

  3. #53

  4. #54
    shadow boxer strawberries's Avatar
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    the battle for who can care less. how undergraduate.

  5. #55
    Senior Member IndyGhost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by strawberries View Post
    the battle for who can care less. how undergraduate.
    I'm lost.
    "I don't know a perfect person.
    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
    -John Green

  6. #56
    Senior Member Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    If you think that through, you will, I believe, find some inconsistencies.
    Im back and forth all the time on the matter. Some times i think: Ho are i to jugde your actions to be wrong.. does it matter? if there is a heaven the baby goes directly there... The doctor did it a favour->instant heaven.. We don`t need to be breeding on crackheads that get pregant.. and so on.

    But then i think.. what rights has the mother to just kill as she pleases because it does not fit within her bizniz schedule or whatever. You fuck up you usually have to pay for it.

    When is it "murder?" depends on the country and thats a bit fucked up too.

    I just settle with abortion as legal to the 12week. (Norway) and im ok with it that way. I think you can get it later if its a rape case btw. Not sure..

  7. #57
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    But, that's just it. Abortion rights aren't determined democratically, but rather by 9 unelected judges.

    Or maybe more exactly one unelected judge who is an egotistical tool.
    True. Not sure what it's like in the States but I believe in Canada, the judges are appointed every so often by the ruling party that was elected (semi)democratically, and that judge will tend to have views similar to the elected party, of course. So it's sortof....democratic by proxy. I think the judges do tend to be more liberal than the average population, for whatever reason. Maybe just because they're well-educated and well-educated people tend towards being liberals, IIRC (I may be wrong here, but I've definitely read that from multiple sources and it's also been my experience with the people I encounter).

    But they don't tend to go around making completely bizarre judgments, at any rate. Someone does have to draw the line somewhere, and judges are a pretty decent option for making that choice. For example, minority rights are important even if the majority doesn't want them, so that's one reason to have judges rather than decide every issue based on a country-wide vote.
    -end of thread-

  8. #58
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    But they don't tend to go around making completely bizarre judgments, at any rate. Someone does have to draw the line somewhere, and judges are a pretty decent option for making that choice. For example, minority rights are important even if the majority doesn't want them, so that's one reason to have judges rather than decide every issue based on a country-wide vote.
    I think Beefeaters point is that accountable legislatures (and Constitutions, if applicable) are supposed to determine laws, not the arbitrary judgements of effectively unaccountable judges. And its individual rights combined with equality under the law that are important, not 'minority rights' per se.

  9. #59
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    I'm not very educated with regard to the legal system, particularly in the states, but I thought the point was that these judges can be somewhat unbiased (certainly relative to congressmen etc) since they don't have to fish for public approval to be reelected every term. They can go purely by what they feel is right, in a perfect scenario.

    Like any human system it has its flaws, but it makes sense to me.

    Minority rights are just part of individual rights. Majority rights are obviously just as important. I'm talking about cases like gay marriage, where despite the wild cries of "destroys the family waaaaaah", the majority doesn't lose any rights by granting a minority equal rights. Or rights for racial minorities. etc.
    -end of thread-

  10. #60
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    No, it hasn't been settled. The courts never establish the personhood/non-personhood of a non-viable fetus. They simply throw up their hands and say that whether or not a fetus is a person is beyond the courts discretion.

    As kennedy wrote in casting the deciding vote in Casey v. Planned Parenthood:
    "At the heart of liberty is the right to define one's own concept of existence, of meaning, of the universe, and of the mystery of human life."

    So the entire analysis begins and ends with the rights of the mother without ever establishing the rights of the child.
    I agree that it hasn't been explicitly codified, but it is the practical effect of the current law.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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