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  1. #41
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    When does one become a "human" in your eyes?
    I have not decided when one becomes a person.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    I don't understand what one has to do with the other.
    The first is a reaction to the facts, the second a reaction to the opinions in the article.

  2. #42
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    The most important distinction between abortion and infanticide is that one act of violence is relatively hidden and the other is more visible. That has a much more profound impact on people's opinions than concerns about privacy.
    No, I think the most important distinction is that one involves an independent being and one a being that is an extension of its host.

    But, what is the logical connection between such events and personhood?
    They certainly have nothing to do with whether or not the fetus is human.
    It's not my argument to make. I was just interpreting what I thought someone else was saying.

    But if pressed to give an answer, if abortion is legal at x week, what makes it less legal at x week and 1 day. Obviously the State has made some sort of distinction between when a fetus is "human" - I just don't know what it is.

  3. #43
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Can we be consistent with our terminology?

    Seriously, everyone debating this at the top levels has agreed that the issue is personhood not humanness.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  4. #44
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    Can we be consistent with our terminology?

    Seriously, everyone debating this at the top levels has agreed that the issue is personhood not humanness.
    Are we even talking about the same thing? I have a feeling that we aren't... Someone asked a question and got criticized. I re-asked the question twice already, and there still is no answer.

    Also out of curiosity, what is the difference between a person and a human, according to people at the "top" level?

  5. #45
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    No, I think the most important distinction is that one involves an independent being and one a being that is an extension of its host.
    Yes.

  6. #46
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    No, I think the most important distinction is that one involves an independent being and one a being that is an extension of its host.
    Extension?
    Biologically they are distinct humans.

    So the relevant question is: what are the competing rights of these two humans?

    A more exact question is: how does the fact that one human is reliant on the other human impact it's rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    Are we even talking about the same thing? I have a feeling that we aren't... Someone asked a question and got criticized. I re-asked the question twice already, and there still is no answer.

    Also out of curiosity, what is the difference between a person and a human, according to people at the "top" level?
    A person is an entity with rights and duties. So a corporation is a person, but not a human.

    A human is a biological term meaning a member of the species homo sapiens. Whether a human is always a person is what is up for debate.

    Sorry for the lame appeal to the "top level." Hopefully, you can see how this better organizes the debate.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  7. #47
    Senior Member IndyGhost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Empathy.


    You are approaching this argument from the wrong direction. The reason viability is chosen over self-awareness or mental capacity is because this is about the mother's right. The mother's right to choose supercedes a fetus' right to life, but once the fetus no longer requires the mother's womb, the woman no longer has the right to an abortion.
    This is worded funny. How can a fetus, even if past 24 weeks, not be dependent on the mother's womb? I think what you mean is, rather, that even if aborted, the fetus or baby would still be able to survive and breath and eat. Thus the reason it is illegal to abort past a certain date.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Dismissive yet again.


    I don't know what your type is, and don't really care, but you seem like some of the self-described INTPs on INTPcentral. You're trying to play a role.
    I swear, Thinker types are more emotional than Feeler types. You guys just like to masquerade it behind "logic." It's hard to be taken seriously if you're motivated by your emotional need to win or degrade.

    Quote Originally Posted by MatsNorway View Post
    Agreed.. But the aspect of pain is interesting.. Personally i would limit abortion to only rape victims and medically ill people and so on.
    What about women of low income? Or women who are still trying to go to school? Or women that have no spouse and live on meager means? Or women who have absolutely no desire to be a mother and would most likely neglect the child even if they made it into the world, becoming world's worst mother? What about girls who are simply too young and still in high school?






    Also, has anyone ever stopped to ask why a woman would even get a late term abortion in the first place?
    "I don't know a perfect person.
    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
    -John Green

  8. #48
    shadow boxer strawberries's Avatar
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    similar story here. the law is that a doc may be charged with murder if they abort a child after it is capable of life independent of its mother (unless they kill the child in an attempt to save the mother's life). this point in time is accepted as being 22-24 weeks.

    one can argue that is an arbitrary cutoff point - the law is saying from that point in time onwards we must prioritise the child's rights over the mother's. however, i have yet to hear an argument presenting a better alternative.

    the fact that a child can live outside of its mother's womb is a meaningful milestone in its development and arguably dissasociates that child from its mother and her preferences/needs from that point in time. the rationale for the law is that the mother in a sense is a vessel for the child from that point onwards, as it's capable of having its own viable biological identity completely separate from her. late-term abortions are also more risky for the mother in terms of their physical and psychological health; the law should discourage women from seeking late-term abortions and clinicians from performing them.

    six month belly.



    pro-choice abortion law is an interesting area of law from a philosophical point of view, as it doesn't protect the most vulnerable party, which is contrary to other areas of law relating to children. for example, in family law or child protection law the child's interests are elevated above those of the parents. pro-choice abortion law prioritises the mother's rights over the vulnerable foetus up until the point where the foetus is strong enough to have its own independent existence.

  9. #49
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    I'm a strong supporter of abortion rights (certainly in first and probably early-second trimester, late second tr. it gets fuzzy) and this is disgusting to me - makes me wonder what the legality of third-trimester abortion is across countries in the western world. I had the impression that it was legal in some states, but I may be misinformed.

    There will always be the question of where the line should be: conception, brain waves, fetal size, heart beat, lung function, "survivability", birth. People will not agree on this anytime in the near future, so they pick laws which seem "right" and that, ideally, the majority of people can accept despite not seeing it as ideal (given a democratic election process and so on).

    From what I know about fetal development the third trimester is a good place to draw the line. Obviously there is no practical difference between an average 24 week old fetus and an average 23 weeks+6 days fetus, just like there is no practical difference between a blood alcohol level of 0.07 vs. 0.08...but they have to make the line somewhere definitive in order for it to be enforcable.
    -end of thread-

  10. #50
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    There will always be the question of where the line should be: conception, brain waves, fetal size, heart beat, lung function, "survivability", birth. People will not agree on this anytime in the near future, so they pick laws which seem "right" and that, ideally, the majority of people can accept despite not seeing it as ideal (given a democratic election process and so on).
    But, that's just it. Abortion rights aren't determined democratically, but rather by 9 unelected judges.

    Or maybe more exactly one unelected judge who is an egotistical tool.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

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