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  1. #11
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    That explains why it is considered murder, but not why abortion is okay on one day and monstrous a few days later.

  2. #12
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    That opening line makes me very squemish. This is sick stuff.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    That explains why it is considered murder, but not why abortion is okay on one day and monstrous a few days later.
    Well, I'm not surprised that you would have difficulty comprehending this distinction or that you would side with the doctor. You seem to lack empathy.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #14
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Well, I'm not surprised that you would have difficulty comprehending this distinction or that you would side with the doctor. You seem to lack empathy.
    I think nic is being quite consistent.

    Although, his determinations as to what makes a life valuable are ultimately arbitrary.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  5. #15
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Well, I'm not surprised that you would have difficulty comprehending this distinction or that you would side with the doctor. You seem to lack empathy.
    Did you know that the fetus probably does not even feel pain in the 24th week?

  6. #16
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    I think nic is being quite consistent.

    Although, his determinations as to what makes a life valuable are ultimately arbitrary.
    I didn't say he wasn't being consistent. His reasoning is flawed because he tries to dismiss a fundamental human trait in order to appear "logical" or "objective", but dismissing that trait leads to an illogical conclusion. He actually sounds a lot like some sort of Hollywood-esque computer.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #17
    morose bourgeoisie
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Did you know that the fetus probably does not even feel pain in the 24th week?
    Post a link to back up this claim. Unless you're just being provocative for attention, which seems plausible.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Did you know that the fetus probably does not even feel pain in the 24th week?
    I don't know at what point a fetus is able to feel pain, but abortions are permitted before the 24th week, so, even if what you say is true, I don't think your point is even valid. From what I understand, it isn't until the 26th week that a fetus is capable of breathing, and the doctor killed breathing fetuses.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  9. #19
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I didn't say he wasn't being consistent. His reasoning is flawed because he tries to dismiss a fundamental human trait in order to be "logical" or "objective", but dismissing that trait leads to an illogical conclusion. He actually sounds a lot like a Hollywood-esque computer.
    What's the fundamental human trait? Viability?
    Viability has nothing to do with whether something is human or not.

    The debate has moved beyond the question of what is human because everyone must agree that biologically 1 week old fetuses are humans.
    The relevant issue now is one of personhood.
    And if you can say that viability determines personhood then there's no reason why you can't say self-awareness or mental capacity are requisite for personhood as well.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  10. #20
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    What's the fundamental human trait? Viability?
    Viability has nothing to do with whether something is human or not.
    Empathy.

    The debate has moved beyond the question of what is human because everyone must agree that biologically 1 week old fetuses are humans.
    The relevant issue now is one of personhood.
    And if you can say that viability determines personhood then there's no reason why you can't say self-awareness or mental capacity are requisite for personhood as well.
    You are approaching this argument from the wrong direction. The reason viability is chosen over self-awareness or mental capacity is because this is about the mother's right. The mother's right to choose supercedes a fetus' right to life, but once the fetus no longer requires the mother's womb, the woman no longer has the right to an abortion.

    I personally think this is about the best compromise we can get between both extremes on this issue.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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