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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Sure it does. It satiates the public bloodlust.
    You shouldn't let your Se overtake your Te sense of efficiency that way.

  2. #82
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    That doesn't really solve anything. It just reinforces the need for more bloodlust. It's basic behavioral psychology. Rather than ending something, you prolong it and great more need for it. You've done just the opposite of what you're arguing has been accomplished.
    I don't agree with your assessment.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #83
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I don't agree with your assessment.
    Okay.

  4. #84
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    I don't think I'll ever quite understand the point of view of people who would be more lenient on a murderer than the murderer was on his victims. Why waste time and resources trying to rehabilitate someone who committed premeditated murder? Someone who executed several elderly people and a child and seriously injured his intended target (with the intention to murder her)? THIS is the guy you want to bring back into the fold? There are plenty of lovely, less fortunate people in this country I'd rather see us spend money on helping to have a productive life, rather than this idiot. Send him to a mental institution if he's proven unfit and unstable, but I'm not the least bit interested in giving murderers the second chances that victims don't get. Rob a liquor store when you're 17, and rehabilitation is the answer, if the perpetrator is willing. Commit premeditated murder, and I'm a lot less worried about letting you contribute to society from this point on.
    Something Witty

  5. #85
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    There are no inherent rights. Society create rights through might. If he refuse to abide by the rules, society owes him no duty of protection. He can be killed if anyone feels like it.
    Still society likes and, perhaps, needs to think that it is morally just to kill him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    What's wrong with making him unhappy?
    The same thing that is wrong with killing him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    First you say he shouldn't be killed, and now you're trying to say that he shouldn't even be made unhappy? Do you believe crimes should be punished, at all?
    I have never said that he should not be killed, nor that he should not be made forever unhappy. What I believe is of little importance for the moment. What I would like us to do, however, is to think about possible improvements of the penal system, because, as I said before, there is a crucial discrepancy between what we do and what do believe to do when we choose to punish someone for a violation of positive law.

  6. #86
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    Making people FOREVER unhappy is a bit extreme. What the hell.

    I guess I'm just not a sadist. I do not understand. Does not compute. Is not logical.

    Of course, not any more illogical than my crushes on INTJs or obsession with hairless cats. I just want the people who are saying these things to accept how emotional and irrational it is.

  7. #87
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    I guess I'm just not a sadist. I do not understand. Does not compute. Is not logical.
    The more you consider yourself a part of that imaginary entity 'state', the more likely you are to experience a case like this as an attack on yourself, to see Loughner (a mere symbol) as a threat to yourself, your loved ones. In the end, it will seem as if the bad guy came into your home to murder your family. Of course you have bloodlust, of course he must be punished - with all the wrath you feel toward people who are after what you deem most precious.

    How lucky we are as individualists.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    The more you consider yourself a part of that imaginary entity 'state', the more likely you are to experience a case like this an attack on yourself, to see Loughner (a mere symbol) as a threat to yourself, your loved ones. In the end, it will seem as if the bad guy came into your home to murder your family. Of course you have bloodlust, of course he must be punished - with all the wrath you feel toward people who are after what you deem most precious.

    How lucky we are as individualists.
    That is a weird way to think. Wow, I never realized I was such a natural individualist.

    Nevermind, yes I did.

    Take that, all of you who thought I was some uber-liberal statist!

  9. #89
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    For others it is just a moral matter: Kill and you shall be killed (but this killing is somehow different, because, hm, we are the righteous ones and so forth).

  10. #90
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    Well, you could easily spin it the other way and say that it is in identifying with our species/society/community that we appreciate our fellow human being's own right to existence andf learn empathy while seeing myself as an independent individual who owes nothing to the rest of the world and doesn't expect much good from it either might make it easier to ask why on earth I should let that fellow human being live when they cause trouble.

    Not saying we should all go and hug the guy and get him some cookies, but emotionality doesn't seem advisable and declaring people a wolfshead* out of purely economical reasoning shakes the very basis of society. Our society is build on the assumption of the inherent value of human life and suddenly making exeptions seems to undermine that very ethical basis. Just a thought.

    *"Caput gerat lupinum!"/"Let his be a wolf's head" - in Old English law, an individual who was declared an outlaw and may be killed on sight as if the person was a wolf or wild animal.
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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