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  1. #71
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    OK - these torture scenarios and suggestions of lobotomies seem a just a tad primitive, people.

    Either kill him because he is a danger to others who will keep killing and killing, or find that he can be rehabilitated to a point that locking him up in a mental institution or prison isn't going to be a serious risk to the lives of everyone near him.

    Be sensible, be logical. WTF.
    Medical science is nowhere near being able to rehabilitate someone like Loughner.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #72
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I assume there is only one just response? How can there be only one possibility for something as subjective and ambiguous as justice? That's absurd. I think you're reading meaning into my words that I did not intend.
    Good.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    You can discount revenge as an "archaic gut reaction" all you want, but humans are largely irrational creatures.
    Agreed. Which is why we need trained judges.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    There is a trend to absolve criminals of their behavior, to say it's not their fault. The more criminal apologists push the envelope, the more likely there is to be a public backlash.
    In that case there seems to be a need for education and public debate. Just to be sure I fully understand you this time, are you saying that you too question the notion that there can be extenuating circumstances and that sentences have to fit the specific case at hand (if that is what you mean by apologism) or are you just stating what you think others are thinking? Do you think that there is a strong trend towards excessive leniency? Or are you just stating that you think others think that. I'm not sure I understand what exactly your position is on this.
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Medical science is nowhere near being able to rehabilitate someone like Loughner.
    But what good would it do to interrupt his dream states and such? It would just make him more insane.

    Obviously SOMETHING IS WRONG WITH HIM. I mean, the only reason I suggest death penalty is because I see it as being parallel to putting a rabid dog to sleep.

    Otherwise, I think anyone who can be rehabilitated or kept under control without violence should be.

  4. #74
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    But what good would it do to interrupt his dream states and such? It would just make him more insane.
    I don't care if he becomes more damaged. I think he's irreparably damaged already.

    Obviously SOMETHING IS WRONG WITH HIM. I mean, the only reason I suggest death penalty is because I see it as being parallel to putting a rabid dog to sleep.

    Otherwise, I think anyone who can be rehabilitated or kept under control without violence should be.
    I agree that something is wrong with him. Just because something is wrong with him does not mean he should be treated with kid gloves. I wouldn't care if he was put to sleep like a rabid dog.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #75
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    In that case there seems to be a need for education and public debate. Just to be sure I fully understand you this time, are you saying that you too question the notion that there can be extenuating circumstances and that sentences have to fit the specific case at hand (if that is what you mean by apologism)
    There can be extenuating circumstances, but I don't consider a mental disorder to be an extenuating circumstance.

    or are you just stating what you think others are thinking? Do you think that there is a strong trend towards excessive leniency? Or are you just stating that you think others think that. I'm not sure I understand what exactly your position is on this.
    I don't know if there's a trend toward leniency. I don't have enough information to draw any conclusion. However, public perception tends to be that there is a trend toward leniency.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I don't care if he becomes more damaged. I think he's irreparably damaged already.
    But this isn't logical and doesn't solve anything for him or for society.

  7. #77
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    There can be extenuating circumstances, but I don't consider a mental disorder to be an extenuating circumstance.
    That is an unusual position.

    In the United Kingdom, Ireland and the United States, use of the defense is rare; it is more common to rely upon a state of temporary mental impairment. In the United States, this is not a legal defense, but a mitigating factor referred to as "diminished capacity". Mitigating factors, including things not eligible for the insanity defense like intoxication, may lead to reduced charges or reduced sentences. The insanity defense is available in most jurisdictions that respect human rights and have a rule of law although the extent to which it can be applied differs between jurisdictions.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insanit...sanity_defense
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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  8. #78
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    But this isn't logical and doesn't solve anything for him or for society.
    Sure it does. It satiates the public bloodlust.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  9. #79
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    That is an unusual position.

    In the United Kingdom, Ireland and the United States, use of the defense is rare; it is more common to rely upon a state of temporary mental impairment. In the United States, this is not a legal defense, but a mitigating factor referred to as "diminished capacity". Mitigating factors, including things not eligible for the insanity defense like intoxication, may lead to reduced charges or reduced sentences. The insanity defense is available in most jurisdictions that respect human rights and have a rule of law although the extent to which it can be applied differs between jurisdictions.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insanit...sanity_defense
    I disagree with the law. If we had an absolute, permanent cure (not just a treatment) for mental disorders, my position would probably change. Until there is a cure, violent criminals with mental disorders will always be dangerous.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  10. #80
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Sure it does. It satiates the public bloodlust.
    That doesn't really solve anything. It just reinforces the need for more bloodlust. It's basic behavioral psychology. Rather than ending something, you prolong it and great more need for it. You've done just the opposite of what you're arguing has been accomplished.

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