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  1. #61
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    Punish to what end? Punishment can be functional, or it can be a work of gruesome art, one that speaks a thousand words. I'm more into seeing these curiosities as potential resources, not a burden for us to put on display, but maybe that is merely one of many functions for the deranged.
    I'm not necessarily opposed to your idea of giving him a lobotomy and putting him to work, but I don't think that will ever happen. Too many people would call that cruel and unusual.

    The way I see it, if this guy gets to just sit in prison for life he may see this as an improvement over his previous life, given that he enjoys lucid dreaming so much. I have a problem with this.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #62
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    This thread scares the sh*t out of me.

    I thought the idea of punishment was 1. to deter, 2. to reform and 3. to keep society safe. This seems to be a competition on how to make a criminal (or in this case a nutcase that should have gotten help ages ago) suffer as much as possible...i.e. revenge. Wanting revenge is a basic human instinct, especially when you are personally involved (say somebody messes with your children) but should a legal system be build on it? Should adults act on feelings of revenge? And if so, under what condition and in which framework?
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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  3. #63
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Kill him? The guy's sick. Killing him doesn't seem right. He needs to be taken care of, not ended.

  4. #64
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I'm not necessarily opposed to your idea of giving him a lobotomy and putting him to work, but I don't think that will ever happen. Too many people would call that cruel and unusual.

    The way I see it, if this guy gets to just sit in prison for life he may see this as an improvement over his previous life, given that he enjoys lucid dreaming so much. I have a problem with this.
    Think of the luxury that is your life, not being exposed to him! While also not killing him. I can't believe anyone would be against it!

  5. #65
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    This thread scares the sh*t out of me.

    I thought the idea of punishment was 1. to deter, 2. to reform and 3. to keep society safe. This seems to be a competition on how to make a criminal (or in this case a nutcase that should have gotten help ages ago) suffer as much as possible...i.e. revenge. Wanting revenge is a basic human instinct, especially when you are personally involved (say somebody messes with your children) but should a legal system be build on it? Should adults act on feelings of revenge? And if so, under what condition and in which framework?
    Revenge is very much a part of this because humans have a sense of fairness or justice. Would you rather vigilantes mete out their own justice or would you rather have the State handle it? Those are our choices. If the State is too lenient, vigilantism will increase.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #66
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    Think of the luxury that is your life, not being exposed to him! While also not killing him. I can't believe anyone would be against it!
    I was thinking of something more along the lines of an alarm that goes off every time he tries to enter a lucid dream, waking him up, not killing him so he can't dream.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #67
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Revenge is very much a part of this because humans have a sense of fairness or justice. Would you rather vigilantes mete out their own justice or would you rather have the State handle it? Those are our choices. If the State is too lenient, vigilantism will increase.
    That looks like a false dichotomy. You assume that there is only one just response and the only question is whether it be vigilantes or the state that carry it out. I doubt that.

    I think that whatever constitutes justice in a particular case is much more nuanced than an archaic gut reaction. The mob will react on that gut reaction and assume a role that lies with the state, which is why nobody wants a lynch mob. But that doesn't mean that you should expect the same reaction from the judiaciary and say, "hey judge, act like a lynch mob or we will". They are not a lynch mob in robes. They have a more detached view, that is what they are there for. They have to act against human instinct and according to an abstract law that has been agreed upon after careful deliberation. That's how modern civilization works.

    So the state has to live in constant fear of people grabbing their torches and pitch forks unless it fulfills their thirst for revenge?
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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  8. #68
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    OK - these torture scenarios and suggestions of lobotomies seem a just a tad primitive, people.

    Either kill him because he is a danger to others who will keep killing and killing, or find that he can be rehabilitated to a point that locking him up in a mental institution or prison isn't going to be a serious risk to the lives of everyone near him.

    Be sensible, be logical. WTF.

  9. #69
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    That looks like a false dichotomy. You assume that there is only one just response and the only question is whether it be vigilantes or the state that carry it out. I doubt that.
    I assume there is only one just response? How can there be only one possibility for something as subjective and ambiguous as justice? That's absurd. I think you're reading meaning into my words that I did not intend.

    I think that whatever constitutes justice in a particular case is much more nuanced than an archaic gut reaction. The mob will react on that gut reaction and assume a role that lies with the state, which is why nobody wants a lynch mob. But that doesn't mean that you should expect the same reaction from the judiaciary and say, "hey judge, act like a lynch mob or we will". They are not a lynch mob in robes. They have a more detached view, that is what they are there for. They have to act against human instinct and according to an abstract law that has been agreed upon after careful deliberation. That's how modern civilization works.
    You can discount revenge as an "archaic gut reaction" all you want, but humans are largely irrational creatures.

    There is a trend to absolve criminals of their behavior, to say it's not their fault. The more criminal apologists push the envelope, the more likely there is to be a public backlash.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  10. #70
    Senior Member Retmeishka's Avatar
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    Default Jared Loughner is sick, not evil. He should not get the death penalty.

    I'm having a hard time writing tonight because I'm feeling sick today, and as a result, can't think as clearly as I would like to... but I'm going to write anyway.

    Death penalty: no.

    The United States military has killed several orders of magnitude more innocent children in other countries than Jared Loughner ever killed.

    I've wanted to watch his videos on YouTube, and I haven't yet, because I'm on dialup and watching anything at all on YouTube is a pain - I have to either wait a very long time for it, or go to the library or somewhere to watch it there.

    However, I saw the first frame of one of his videos where he talks about being a sleepwalker who turns off the alarm clock. When I saw that, I felt intense pity and horror, and I burst into tears and cried for several minutes. I saw a real person inside him and I felt love for him. I felt that he was trapped inside of a mind that wasn't working properly anymore and I wanted to know why his mind wasn't working.

    I want to know:

    1. which drugs was he using? was he on steroids? (he was weightlifting)

    2. were any toxic chemicals in his environment poisoning him without his knowledge?

    3. did he have a virus that destroyed his mind?

    4. did he have a genetic disorder that affected his hormones? (I am remembering something about how the Hatfields and McCoys feud was caused by a genetic disorder that made the adrenal glands grow tumors, which caused people to become violent, and this disorder runs in the family.)

    5. did he have food sensitivities? Some people go crazy because they can't metabolize the chemicals in particular foods, ordinary foods like wheat.

    6. anything else that caused him to lose his mental functioning and experience constant rage?

    I believe that he is telling the truth when he says that he sleepwalks and forgets what he has done. This can happen when you use drugs. Some prescription psychiatric drugs can also cause this to happen. I want to know every single drug he was using, prescription drugs, illegal drugs, legal herbs, over-the-counter drugs from the grocery store - everything. I want to know what foods he was eating. I want to know about every chemical he was exposed to.

    I saw his face. It was the mug shot where he has this big, weird, creepy smile. I recognize that smile. It is a drug-induced "permagrin." He can't stop smiling, because he's on drugs. I've experienced that same permagrin myself when I've used too much St. John's Wort (an herbal antidepressant). Some drugs make you smile all the time and you can't stop smiling, no matter what the circumstances, no matter whether it's an appropriate time to be smiling or not, no matter what's happening.

    He can't even speak clearly or think clearly! That is the most obvious sign that something is wrong with him physically. When your brain is going bad and you can't communicate anymore, it's not your fault.

    Death penalty: no. He needs to stop using every drug that he is using, but he needs more than that - he needs an alternative medicine doctor to troubleshoot his environmental illnesses and food sensitivities and anything else that can contribute to his health problems, because a mainstream medicine doctor won't be able to do that, and I know this from my own experiences. Something is causing him to go crazy, and it's NOT because he is an evil spirited person who deserves to die. He is a sick person losing control of himself through no fault of his own.

    I guess I'll let this go for now. I've written enough.

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