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  1. #111
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    You have used some very convoluted reasoning to reach that conclusion.
    Not really.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    You assign it no value. That is the same as dismissing it.
    All I do is ask for its purpose. All you do is avoid my questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    You keep asking, what is the purpose of punishing the criminal? If you cannot understand the need to punish criminals, there is some sort of disconnect between you and the rest of humanity. I think that is a lack of empathy.
    I have never asked that. Are you even reading my posts?

  2. #112
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    All I do is ask for its purpose. All you do is avoid my questions.
    I have already explained that criminal punishment (revenge) fulfills the human desire for justice, which I believe stems from empathy in this case. I don't like repeating myself.

    I have never asked that. Are you even reading my posts?
    You are correct. I went back and looked and it was Thatswhatshesaid who kept asking for a purpose. I don't know how I got the two of you confused. Perhaps it was that your avatars have similar colors? I'm not sure.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #113
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    I believe in mercy for murderers not because I'm more sympathetic to them than I am their victims. It's because I think revenge mentality hurts us as a society and as individuals.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  4. #114
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I have already explained that criminal punishment (revenge) fulfills the human desire for justice, which I believe stems from empathy in this case. I don't like repeating myself.
    Empathy leads to a desire for justice. Revenge fulfills that desire. So without empathy there would be, for people like you, no need for justice and, consequently, no need for revenge (at least in this case)? Yet there will be justice - in court. Would you not agree, then, that empathy is rather counterproductive to a rational treatment of this case, quasi a bad thing?

  5. #115
    Oberon
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    There is absolutely no doubt what Loughner did, and there is absolutely no doubt that Loughner did it.

    I think the sooner he's duly tried, convicted, and lethally injected, the better.

  6. #116
    As Long As It Takes.... Redbone's Avatar
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    It barely matters what happens to the man at this point. He's detained; the disease is "cured". Giving him the death penalty would be a crude act of vengeance, no more righteous than putting a dog out of its misery. The videos on his Youtube channels were red flags that he suffers from a sort of psychosis. If he does, then I don't think his conscience could be held any more accountable than the gun he used.

    What saddens me is that no one acted upon noticing that this man was careening into loony land. Teachers, friends, co-workers and family members all noticed acute changes in his outlook and behavior, yet none of them intervened. Right when he was boiling over, he was in possession of an automatic handgun. The gun laws here are extraordinarily loose; while less common than alcoholic beverages, the requirements for possessing and carrying powerful firearms aren't a far cry from alcohol regulation.
    ^This

    I know a dx is impossible without a thorough examination of this man but he sure fits a lot of signs and symptoms that schizophrenics show. Right age group, delusions of persecution, fixation on thoughts and beliefs.

    I know I'm dragging another issue into this but I wonder about the type of health care he had access to. It can be difficult to see a psychiatrist with good coverage and almost impossible without it. He clearly needed some help. I wonder if his family tried to get him into a doctor but got the usual, "We're seeing people 6 months out now. Do you still want to make an appointment?" However, he sounds bad enough that he needed to be admitted and stabilized asap.



    The whole thing is sad. If he is truly ill, what can be done with him? Will this be totally ignored? The legal definition of insanity and having a dx'd mental illness seem to be very far apart.

  7. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    Must be the famous Ni humor I keep hearing about. So there is an evil/antisocial gene and by killing everyone who has it we become a peaceful society? Or what do you mean by "antosocial traits"?
    The killer is eliminated. His ability to influence others is eliminated.

    This. The murderer's crime is disrespecting another human being's right to life. The moment you decide to kill him (or her), you too decide that another person's life is expendable, thus lowering yourself a bit closer to their ethical level. The physical act is the same, the difference is only in the motivation and social acceptance in that killing somebody who has already killed is socially sanctioned in some societies. Oh, yeah, that and a judge's signature.
    Religion aside, there is nothing inherently immoral about killing someone. The motivation and the end effect is what matters. Obvious examples are euthanasia and self defense. You don't have to value human life to refrain from killing. Self interest is sufficient motivation.

  8. #118
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    Yes. They ensure that antisocial traits are weeded out of society over time.
    That was your answer to the question if feelings of r´revenge should be acted upon. When I asked if you by "antisocial traits" you meant biological traits, because I have no idea what you mean by that term and don't understand what you are getting at, you answerded:

    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    The killer is eliminated. His ability to influence others is eliminated.
    That sounds as if it is social contact to killers that turn sobody into a killer and you now suggest killing killers before they influence other people to become killers so that there will be less killing in the end. Is that what you mean? Sort of like the 1950s domino theory on the infectuous spread of international communism from country to country? I still don't understand what you mean.

    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    Religion aside, there is nothing inherently immoral about killing someone. The motivation and the end effect is what matters. Obvious examples are euthanasia and self defense. You don't have to value human life to refrain from killing. Self interest is sufficient motivation.
    Are you implying that religion would be the only reason to attribute inherent value to human life? I was talking about taking another human being's life, by the way. Self defense is a case of the lesser evil but the reasoning behind sanctioning self defense is that it is about life against life and your right to protect yours, the right to self defense does not mean that you can kill somebody just because they threatened you, there must have been a situation where you had no other choice. Euthanasia is a touchy topic, but it comes down to a right of choice, of control over your own life, and it is all about consent (just like suicide, it is a descision over one's own life). The fact that consent is so crucial here only illustrates the idea that only you should be the master over your own life and death, nobody else.

    Damn it, now I forgot to comment on the juicy part where you claim the criminal willfully relinquishes his right to life when he commits his crime. Oh well, next time. Gotta work.
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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  9. #119
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I believe in mercy for murderers not because I'm more sympathetic to them than I am their victims. It's because I think revenge mentality hurts us as a society and as individuals.
    The best post of the year.
    Thank you, Ivy.

  10. #120
    XES 5231311252's Avatar
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    Let them not only pluck your eyes out, hand them over on a silver platter.
    The depth of planning he did and a few other events, leads me to believe that he's quite sane. With that, I think there's little chance for his rehabilitation, so I'd insist that he be dealt with. Meaning that he's either exiled or killed; the first option is a win-win for both sides of the debate.


    An argument that is common in this thread is "it's out of revenge", when not every repercussion is an act of "revenge". If a child punches her parent and the parent reacts to the assault with some form of punishment, it is not usually an act of "revenge", but some form of "repercussion". If there are no repercussions, what's to stop people from acting out? The kindness and goodness that rests nestled in their hearts? Lulz, maybe for some, but the reality is that it's not widespread. And then there are those like this fellow whose thoughts cannot be deterred by threat of punishment, law, religion or morality, which is a danger to the society.
    “'Fuck', I think. What a beautiful word. If I could say only one thing for the rest of my life, that would be it.”

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