User Tag List

First 910111213 Last

Results 101 to 110 of 132

  1. #101
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    3,705

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    This. The murderer's crime is disrespecting another human being's right to life. The moment you decide to kill him (or her), you too decide that another person's life is expendable, thus lowering yourself a bit closer to their ethical level. The physical act is the same, the difference is only in the motivation and social acceptance in that killing somebody who has already killed is socially sanctioned in some societies. Oh, yeah, that and a judge's signature.
    That's one way of looking at it; another way of looking at it is that murderers willfully abrogate their right to life through their actions, and failure to enact a sentence sufficient to the crime committed devalues the life of a victim. I've noticed, for instance, that many European countries routinely (and in some cases this is required by law)give relatively miniscule prison sentences for murder crimes, and sometimes even release dying perpetrators of mass-murder (I seem to recall starting threads on both such occurances).

    On the issue of the death penalty, even opponents in Europe and opponents in the United States speak different languages; the latter speaks out against the probabilities of innocent men being sentenced, while the former speaks out against guilty men being sentenced.

  2. #102
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    3w4
    Posts
    6,276

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    I have never said that he should not be killed, nor that he should not be made forever unhappy. What I believe is of little importance for the moment. What I would like us to do, however, is to think about possible improvements of the penal system, because, as I said before, there is a crucial discrepancy between what we do and what do believe to do when we choose to punish someone for a violation of positive law.
    Of all the problems with the penal system, its treatment of murderers is one of the lowest priorities, in my opinion. Let's look at non-violent drug offenders first.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #103
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    3w4
    Posts
    6,276

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Making people FOREVER unhappy is a bit extreme. What the hell.
    Are you kidding me? That's what prison does to everyone. Prison isn't supposed to be a happy place. Loughner is a special case where prison, alone, probably wouldn't make him nearly as unhappy as the typical person because he spends so much time in lucid dreams. Basically, I think that just letting him sit in a cell for 50+ years, lucid dreaming, would be letting him off easy.

    I guess I'm just not a sadist. I do not understand. Does not compute. Is not logical.

    Of course, not any more illogical than my crushes on INTJs or obsession with hairless cats. I just want the people who are saying these things to accept how emotional and irrational it is.
    Do you believe all criminal punishment is sadistic?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #104
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    3w4
    Posts
    6,276

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    The more you consider yourself a part of that imaginary entity 'state', the more likely you are to experience a case like this as an attack on yourself, to see Loughner (a mere symbol) as a threat to yourself, your loved ones. In the end, it will seem as if the bad guy came into your home to murder your family. Of course you have bloodlust, of course he must be punished - with all the wrath you feel toward people who are after what you deem most precious.

    How lucky we are as individualists.
    This is nonsense. It's called empathy for the victims. You seem to only have empathy for the murderer.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #105
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    9,128

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Of all the problems with the penal system, its treatment of murderers is one of the lowest priorities, in my opinion. Let's look at non-violent drug offenders first.
    Murder is merely an example; the problem remains the same for any 'crime'. I think it is stupid that drugs are illegal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    This is nonsense. It's called empathy for the victims.
    If we changed it just a bit, I could agree: "This is called empathy for the victims. It's nonsense." What purpose does it serve?

  6. #106
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    3w4
    Posts
    6,276

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Murder is merely an example; the problem remains the same for any 'crime'. I think it is stupid that drugs are illegal.
    I don't agree that the problem is the "same". This sounds like false equivalence to me.

    If we changed it just a bit, I could agree: "This is called empathy for the victims. It's nonsense." What purpose does it serve?
    Are you just trolling? That's an honest question because I can't imagine any reason a rational person would try to dismiss empathy for the victims as nonsense, unless they're just trolling for a response.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #107
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    9,128

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I don't agree that the problem is the "same". This sounds like false equivalence to me.
    I am very sorry to hear that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Are you just trolling? That's an honest question because I can't imagine any reason a rational person would try to dismiss empathy for the victims as nonsense, unless they're just trolling for a response.
    What was it that you called nonsense? What was it that you called empathy for the victims? No, I am not trolling. What purpose does your anger serve? Are you going to write a letter to the victims, pay them a condolence visit, give them a hug, fight for a punishment fierce enough to quench their pain?

  8. #108
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    3w4
    Posts
    6,276

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    What was it that you called nonsense? What was it that you called empathy for the victims?
    You characterized empathy for the victims as allegiance to the "imaginary state". This leads me to believe that you do not understand empathy.

    No, I am not trolling. What purpose does your anger serve? Are you going to write a letter to the victims, pay them a condolence visit, give them a hug, fight for a punishment fierce enough to quench their pain?
    Oh, now you're going with Ad hominem, characterizing me as "angry".

    You are dismissing a fundamental human trait in an effort to appear "logical". You final question supports my position that you do not understand empathy.

  9. #109
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    9,128

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    You characterized empathy for the victims as allegiance to the "imaginary state". This leads me to believe that you do not understand empathy.
    What a foolish notion. As if empathy were something difficult, something that has to be learned. Your words lead me to believe that you have never thought about how empathy works on long distances. You empathize because you sense an alikeness; you empathize more with a wounded representative from the US than with a representative from Italy because you sense an alikeness there, too. We need pictures of children starving in Africa not only to become aware of their existence but also to see that we are all alike.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Oh, now you're going with Ad hominem, characterizing me as "angry".
    What I described in my post about bloodlust, you called 'empathy for the victims'. As I see it, you seem to act as if you possess that empathy. In doing so, however, you subscribed to that part of my description, in which I happened to use the word 'wrath'. Therefore, by turning 'wrath' into 'anger', I was actually defusing the tone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    You are dismissing a fundamental human trait in an effort to appear "logical". You final question supports my position that do not understand empathy.
    I am not dismissing it.

  10. #110
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    3w4
    Posts
    6,276

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    What a foolish notion. As if empathy were something difficult, something that has to be learned. Your words lead me to believe that you have never thought about how empathy works on long distances. You empathize because you sense an alikeness; you empathize more with a wounded representative from the US than with a representative from Italy because you sense an alikeness there, too. We need pictures of children starving in Africa not only to become aware of their existence but also to see that we are all alike.
    Okay, so you're at least able to make an intellectual argument claiming that you understand empathy.

    What I described in my post about bloodlust, you called 'empathy for the victims'. As I see it, you seem to act as if you possess that empathy. In doing so, however, you subscribed to that part of my description, in which I happened to use the word 'wrath'. Therefore, by turning 'wrath' into 'anger', I was actually defusing the tone.
    You have used some very convoluted reasoning to reach that conclusion.

    I am not dismissing it.
    You assign it no value. That is the same as dismissing it. You keep asking, what is the purpose of punishing the criminal? If you cannot understand the need to punish criminals, there is some sort of disconnect between you and the rest of humanity. I think that is a lack of empathy.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

Similar Threads

  1. What type is Jared Lee Loughner?
    By + patch in forum Popular Culture and Type
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 01-20-2011, 11:55 PM
  2. Preschool, Yes or No?
    By Tigerlily in forum Academics and Careers
    Replies: 65
    Last Post: 01-07-2009, 12:18 AM
  3. Wii or No?
    By Sunshine in forum The Fluff Zone
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 09-05-2008, 08:09 PM
  4. Homeschooling: yes or no?
    By Oberon in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 91
    Last Post: 04-04-2008, 06:01 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO