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  1. #31
    Senior Member Dark Razor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Only 15% of your income? If only the US government could be so efficient.
    Yes, though as I said, the part the employer pays he pays on top of your actual wage, so you yourself only pay slightly more than half of the 15%, this is so with all payments for non-privat social security.

    To discourage excessive prescriptions and visits to the doctor you have to pay a small part of every prescription yourself, have to pay 10 euros for every day in hospital and pay 10 euros every quarter year to your doctor if you visit him. Though those additional payments are limited to I believe 2% of your annual income.

    Insurance is organized over a number of non-profit insurance companies that are supposed to compete with each other, so their rates are slightly different and they are driven to develop efficient administrations.
    Additionally private insurance companies are regulated in ways I dont fully know about, regulation mostly serves the purpose to ensure that the private companies do not just pick the young and healthy but have to insure everyone.

    Of course corruption is high, but I dont think you can develop a system that involves money without having corruption.

  2. #32
    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nottaprettygal View Post
    How is it scary? It seems to me like you're trying to compare completely different situations (car insurance, Iraq) to universalized health care. I don't see the connections.

    From a strictly utilitarian standpoint, universalized healthcare makes sense. Will every person be better off? No. But more people will have the care that they lack now.
    Actually I am tying together that her resoluteness for universal health care is scary to a point that only insurance companies will get rich from the endeavor, it eliminates the freedom to choose whether you want to participate by being penalized if you don't, ergo you have to take it whether you choose to or not.

    She has been on this single minded kick since the 90's to a point that it appears quasi-obssessive. I am afraid that she would push it through in defiance of consequences, and advice from her advisors or public that it will not work, similar to GW's resoluteness to this war. IT'S SCARY!

  3. #33
    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    There's a problem with our system, but making it 'free' won't help. When something is 'free', the quality goes down. Copying Canada would be a disaster.
    Uhhh... what made you think it was free. She says AFFORDABLE healthcare, not FREE healthcare. The only way to make it universal is to make it mandated that everyone must have it, thuse insurance companies cannot turn you down, but the can drive up the price to where you will go elsewhere to recieve it. I want everyone to be covered who chooses and I think that every minor must be covered, until age 18, but if I choose to have coverage for my dependents and not on myself, that should be my choice not the governments and certainly not hers.

    She accuses Obama (and this does not reflect that I am pro-Obama and/or anti-Clinton) that his policy does not cover fifteen million people, when he is saying that he wants affordable health coverage, but will allow each family to make the choice, not the government.

    On another note and off topic, Mike Huckabee has the most out of the box yet suggestion in tax reform in doing away with the tax code and taxing on consumerism. This is not necessarily radical (since I think it may be used in other countries), but makes all the sense in the world.

  4. #34
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Razor View Post
    Yes, though as I said, the part the employer pays he pays on top of your actual wage, so you yourself only pay slightly more than half of the 15%, this is so with all payments for non-privat social security.
    You do realize that's considered a cost of employment, right? So it's essentially income that you never see. The same thing happens in the US with Social Security. Many people think they only pay 6.2%, but there's another hidden 6.2% that's factored in by employers when they hire someone. So we effectively pay 12.4%, already.

    Insurance is organized over a number of non-profit insurance companies that are supposed to compete with each other, so their rates are slightly different and they are driven to develop efficient administrations.
    Additionally private insurance companies are regulated in ways I dont fully know about, regulation mostly serves the purpose to ensure that the private companies do not just pick the young and healthy but have to insure everyone.
    See, this doesn't make sense to me. The point of insurance is to distribute risk. I'm considered young and healthy. If my insurance company also insures someone that smokes and drinks excessively, that affects my rate, costing me more money. In effect, I have to pay for someone else's crappy lifestyle choices.

    Right now, I don't have health insurance. It's a calculated risk for me, but one I'm willing to take.

    Of course corruption is high, but I dont think you can develop a system that involves money without having corruption.
    Agreed, that's why the system must be constantly monitored and modified to minimize corruption.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #35
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by "?" View Post
    Uhhh... what made you think it was free. She says AFFORDABLE healthcare, not FREE healthcare. The only way to make it universal is to make it mandated that everyone must have it, thuse insurance companies cannot turn you down, but the can drive up the price to where you will go elsewhere to recieve it. I want everyone to be covered who chooses and I think that every minor must be covered, until age 18, but if I choose to have coverage for my dependents and not on myself, that should be my choice not the governments and certainly not hers.
    You don't think I honestly believe it would be free, do you? Did you see the quotes? We all know where this is headed, toward a system like Social Security. Mandating health insurance coverage is just the first step.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #36
    Senior Member Dark Razor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    See, this doesn't make sense to me. The point of insurance is to distribute risk. I'm considered young and healthy. If my insurance company also insures someone that smokes and drinks excessively, that affects my rate, costing me more money. In effect, I have to pay for someone else's crappy lifestyle choices.

    Right now, I don't have health insurance. It's a calculated risk for me, but one I'm willing to take.
    See, those are, in part, cultural differences. With our system we aim to provide the best possible care to society as a whole, while at the same time giving the individual as good a deal as possible under that condition.

    Giving the best possible deal to individuals who can afford it is not the goal, and would in fact be bad because it were detrimental to social justice.

    Of course I cannot speak for all my countrymen, and many in fact would be very opposed to this (and many ppl also work against this), but I think I can say that in my country it is generally understood that you have the obligation and the duty to shoulder your share of the collective costs of society's workings, otherwise the system would not exist as it does now.

    This is also reflected in our constitution which states "Property entails obligations. Its use shall also serve the public good."

    But now back to health care.

  7. #37
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Razor View Post
    See, those are, in part, cultural differences. With our system we aim to provide the best possible care to society as a whole, while at the same time giving the individual as good a deal as possible under that condition.

    Giving the best possible deal to individuals who can afford it is not the goal, and would in fact be bad because it were detrimental to social justice.
    I wouldn't have a problem with the government helping children with leukemia. But I have a major problem with paying the medical bills of a lifelong smoker. The problem for me is, where do you draw the line? This gets into a messy area, IMO. If you're going to have mandated universal health care, then you also have to police behavior, otherwise it's not fair for the people who don't trash their own bodies, and that's something I'm not comfortable with.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  8. #38
    Senior Member Dark Razor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I wouldn't have a problem with the government helping children with leukemia. But I have a major problem with paying the medical bills of a lifelong smoker. The problem for me is, where do you draw the line? This gets into a messy area, IMO. If you're going to have mandated universal health care, then you also have to police behavior, otherwise it's not fair for the people who don't trash their own bodies, and that's something I'm not comfortable with.
    I can see that as a valid concern, however there are some equalizers, so to speak. For example a smoker pays tabacco tax, an alcoholic pays alcohol tax, and people who abuse their bodies die earlier, so they wont have to be treated for deseases that are caused by old age, and that most of their pension payments are available for other people.

    I dont have exact statistics on this though, so I dont know if all this really adds up to the costs caused by bad lifestyle choices.

  9. #39
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by "?" View Post
    On another note and off topic, Mike Huckabee has the most out of the box yet suggestion in tax reform in doing away with the tax code and taxing on consumerism. This is not necessarily radical (since I think it may be used in other countries), but makes all the sense in the world.
    Taxing real consumerism would make sense. Taxing the necessities of life like food, energy, medical care (for real medical problems, not cosmetic stuff), and housing up to a certain point, doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

    Normally, the poorer the family, the larger percentage of their income they spend and spend on necessities, so putting a burden on those necessities would place the burden on the shoulders of those who can least afford to bear it.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  10. #40
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Razor View Post
    I can see that as a valid concern, however there are some equalizers, so to speak. For example a smoker pays tabacco tax, an alcoholic pays alcohol tax, and people who abuse their bodies die earlier, so they wont have to be treated for deseases that are caused by old age, and that most of their pension payments are available for other people.

    I dont have exact statistics on this though, so I dont know if all this really adds up to the costs caused by bad lifestyle choices.
    See, that's what I'm talking about. I don't think the government should be taxing activities like that simply because they consider them to be harmful. New York city has outlawed trans fats. Where does it stop? With the computing power we'll eventually have, will everyone have a diet decided upon by the government? I think that's a definite possibility. Each successive generation becomes more accustomed to having the government managing their lives. That sounds Orwellian, but I don't like the trend.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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