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  1. #21
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YourLocalJesus View Post
    Alright, we are both from different cultures. I might not know everything about the United States, but I bet you know even less about Europe.
    You don't know enough about me to make this statement. Is this some sort of competition for you?

    What I mean is that things are wrong and that the U.S. should look for a model of governing and law that is a little less flawed. To follow good examples. Like Finland, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Switzerland etc.
    You're still missing the point.

    Can we both agree upon that the way things are is crazy and bad?
    Bad? That's relative.

    All states has to obey federal law.
    All states have taxpayers that pay $ to the federal government money.
    Alright. Solution: Make taxpayers pay more, and get healthcare for everyone.
    While you're at it, change the school laws so that it doesn't cost a couple of years income to get an education.
    Right. And the discussion here is what type of system would work the best.

    And your comment about the schools...sigh. If school is free, lots of people who don't take school seriously will go, wasting time and resources. That happens already, but it will be a much larger problem if schooling is free.

    The fact that everyone in the U.S. has to obey the federal laws makes change possible. And tax payers makes it possible financially.
    BUT, keep the private clinics. And have laws that limit what they can charge a person for getting surgery. Follow what has been done in other countries.
    Yes, set price ceilings because those don't lower quality, at all. :rolli:

    I'd rather have a better system. I don't want to copy someone else's flawed system.

    And just for the record, Michael Moore actually made some kind of documentary about some people that went to Cuba to get healthcare because they couldn't afford it in the U.S.

    It is actually a lot cheaper to pay the flight to canada or mexico and then on to Cuba than to pay 100 000$ for a simple surgery that is free in most western countries.
    I've seen it. Cuba puts out just as much propaganda as the US or any other country.

    And why would that be wrong? If they are so bad, why do they keep progressing against all odds?? Having the best healthcare system in the world etc. Despite the navy blockade and trade boycott that is part of the U.S. horribly wrong foreign policy.
    They don't have the best health care system in the world.

    I kind of wandered off there, but that is mostly because that there is so much that is just WRONG with America.
    Your anti-American attitude is quite evident.

    And really, the thing about being a sensor is kind of good when it comes to this matter, because sensors are PRACTICAL, and this isn't some kind of abstract issue. It isn't about it being different over there or here, it is simply about you guys across the pond needing to change.
    My sensor comment obviously went right over your head.

    1. Take a lot more taxes from rich people
    2. Take a little more from ordinary people
    3. Spend it on getting better schools for everyone
    4. Point three will in time generate more doctors - wrong
    5. Get better healthcare
    Do you honestly think it's that simple?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #22
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    School isn't free here, but it really isn't difficult to go to, either. Anyone who is broke has a pretty good chance of getting most of their school paid for by the government, and a normal college-age job can pay for expenses relatively easily.
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

    Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office
    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  3. #23
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YourLocalJesus View Post
    We pay about 33% taxes, there is no particular healthcare tax.
    But we earn money accordingly, though. And the results are that we have less bums and that most people produce things or contribute in other ways to society.

    As an electrician I earn about 65 000$ after taxes per year... That isn't half bad.
    Getting higher education this autumn, wich I don't have to pay for And we have a certain system that gives us money while we study (nothing fancy), just enough to live, eat and buy books etc. That we have to pay back later, at a % rate of what we earn later on in life. Not that heavy to pay at all. And there is always the option to work and study at the same time, but that takes a lot more time than to study full-time. And draining.

    Anyway. It is more complicated but the overall results on how things look in most european countries, it is way better.
    The countries named above are the shining good examples, but most european countries have better systems than the U.S., because we have been around for much longer. The U.S. is still a very young nation.
    Well, considering my family pays 10% of our gross income for medical insurance and a medical savings to cover copays, etc, everyone pays 7.5% of (the first $100,000 of) their wages on Social Security (FICA) tax which people of my generation will be lucky to ever see again, we pay 6% state sales tax on everything but food, and we owe the government tens of thousands of dollars in student loans . . . 33% doesn't sound half bad.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  4. #24
    Courage is immortality Valiant's Avatar
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    My opinions aren't that popular with you, Lateralus. I can hear that.
    Your opinions aren't popular with me, either. Because that is all they are, from both sides. Opinions. I believe that you can and should change things, even if it takes force. You seem to think that everything is fine and nothing should be changed.

    And as of your "points", you haven't made any good ones yet. And most of what comes out of your mouth cannot and will not be taken seriously.

    If you don't want another flawed system, then you might as well go back to the stone age and forget about science, history and... Well everything. Because it is flawed. The thing with yours vs. ours is that ours is less so. And it's adaptive, when something new and good pops up, it is used.
    In the U.S. things move a lot slower and most people seem to have very thick sculls.

    Why in hell does healthcare work over here, while it doesn't over there?
    If i'd get sick in the U.S. i'd be living on the streets afterwards, if I didn't die first because of lack of treatment. Because I couldn't pay up. It's sick.

    And wait... Since when doesn't the U.S. control world media? Cuba can hardly put out propaganda, at least not even 1% of what the U.S. pours out every day. The worst part is people who can't make out the difference between truth and lies, like you, friend.

    I sure hope Hillary Clinton wins this election, because she is at least willing to do something about it. Because I can't seriously see that it would get any worse for the common man that doesn't have a rich daddy or mommy to pay for everything.

    This conversation is over. Since the feeling of hopelessness has almost overwhelmed me. There is nothing I can do that will ever convince you.
    The only thing that could, is if you experience realitys' darker sides, the really bad things in life. Like being poor and unable to pay for healthcare, for an example. The united states is very much like Rome. And that isn't flattering, it's a goddamn jungle and in some areas of life, very uncivilized and obviously corrupt.


    Good evening to you, sir.

    Mightier than the tread of marching armies is the power of an idea whose time has come

  5. #25
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Awww, need a hug?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #26
    Courage is immortality Valiant's Avatar
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    Talking

    Yes, please, let's hug
    You beast of a florida-man, come here for some man-lovin

    Mightier than the tread of marching armies is the power of an idea whose time has come

  7. #27

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    I was going to post in this thread, but the level of deliberate misunderstanding and misplaced xenophobia make it impossible to make a point that isn't going to be taken out of context.
    Everybody have fun tonight. Everybody Wang Chung tonight.

    Johari
    /Nohari

  8. #28
    The Unwieldy Clawed One Falcarius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    ...I just worry about people abusing the system with minor issues where they wouldn't normally see a doctor, but do so because it's free.
    First of all that does not happen, you make doctors putting instruments in random parts of my body sound like fun, so I assume you have some incredibly sexy female doctor.

    Having said that, if anything is true it is the opposite, the thing that wastes the most time and money is people not keeping their appointment.


    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    At about what rate are average people taxed for health care there, YLJ?
    In the Uk the average person on the average wage of around £25,000 ( 48,677 USD) pays around £2,000 (3,894 USD) in national insurance, but it depends how much you take home.

    Edit: Why the hell does it keep cutting my posts off?
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalassa View Post
    Oh our 3rd person reference to ourselves denotes nothing more than we realize we are epic characters on the forum.

    Narcissism, plain and simple.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Dark Razor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    At about what rate are average people taxed for health care there, YLJ?
    Just to add another number, in Germany we pay about 8% of our income for health care, plus another 7,5% that is payed by the employer and is not deducted from your pay.

    This does include insurance for your wife/husband and your children under 25 years, if they are not themselves working. There is also the option of private insurance, but then you have to insure every family member individually, which is much more expensive.

  10. #30
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Razor View Post
    Just to add another number, in Germany we pay about 8% of our income for health care, plus another 7,5% that is payed by the employer and is not deducted from your pay.

    This does include insurance for your wife/husband and your children under 25 years, if they are not themselves working. There is also the option of private insurance, but then you have to insure every family member individually, which is much more expensive.
    Only 15% of your income? If only the US government could be so efficient.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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