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  1. #11
    Courage is immortality Valiant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    There's a problem with our system, but making it 'free' won't help. When something is 'free', the quality goes down. Copying Canada would be a disaster.
    YEAH, Canada is SUCH a bad country, eh?

    Scandinavian model: BOTH things co-exists. There are loads of private clinics, dentists etc. ER clinics are free and you get taken care of DIRECTLY. If it's something that can wait and you don't want to wait, and can afford it, you go to a private clinic.
    Edit: The hospitals are free too.

    Just because your neighbor has one stupid rule in one state (or is it all?), it doesn't mean you can't have both.

    And quality doesn't go down... All doctors still have to pass that crazy-hard education and practice. They also don't generally OWN private clinics, so they are working for almost the same payment.

    Satisfied? You guys across the pond are so un-practical sometimes

    But I love you guys anyway

    Mightier than the tread of marching armies is the power of an idea whose time has come

  2. #12
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YourLocalJesus View Post
    YEAH, Canada is SUCH a bad country, eh?
    I never made such a statement, and it's irrelevant anyway.

    Scandinavian model: BOTH things co-exists. There are loads of private clinics, dentists etc. ER clinics are free and you get taken care of DIRECTLY. If it's something that can wait and you don't want to wait, and can afford it, you go to a private clinic.
    Edit: The hospitals are free too.
    There will always be a disparity between private and public (free) care. The best doctors will gravitate toward the private side because that's where the money will be.

    Just because your neighbor has one stupid rule in one state (or is it all?), it doesn't mean you can't have both.
    What are you talking about?

    And quality doesn't go down... All doctors still have to pass that crazy-hard education and practice. They also don't generally OWN private clinics, so they are working for almost the same payment.
    Your reasoning is flawed. There will be an increase in demand. Therefore, the US would need not only more doctors, but more nurses, etc. If that demand is not met, there will be a decrease in quality.

    Satisfied? You guys across the pond are so un-practical sometimes
    Does Europe have a single system for the entire continent? Or do they have many smaller systems?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #13
    Courage is immortality Valiant's Avatar
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    My reasoning isn't flawed, it's just a different world over here so you probably can't get what i'm saying.

    Anyway, you guys can always go to Cuba to get free quality healthcare They don't turn down foreigners, american or otherwise.
    Maybe you can see that as a point that they should make college education FREE, and not only available to rich or middle class kids. Then quality wouldn't decrease, but the numbers would, in time, add up.

    I'm probably making you kind of angry because I don't agree and that I seem to lack all respect for the "greatest country in the world".

    And no, Europe isn't a country. I thought you still had schools over there. Of course we have smaller systems, because we are different NATIONS.

    I like Scandinavia in general though. We have different systems, but they are somewhat similar. They are more or less all copied from the swedish law and governing system, but Finland has made it to an art and practice it much better than even Sweden. The public sector is a MUST.

    Mightier than the tread of marching armies is the power of an idea whose time has come

  4. #14
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YourLocalJesus View Post
    My reasoning isn't flawed, it's just a different world over here so you probably can't get what i'm saying.
    Yes, different cultures. The US is far more diverse than any individual European country (except perhaps Russia). You seem to realize that the US is different on one hand, then ignore those differences on the other. Your reasoning is inconsistent.

    Anyway, you guys can always go to Cuba to get free quality healthcare They don't turn down foreigners, american or otherwise.
    Maybe you can see that as a point that they should make college education FREE, and not only available to rich or middle class kids. Then quality wouldn't decrease, but the numbers would, in time, add up.
    This paragraph is so wrong, I don't even know where to start.

    I'm probably making you kind of angry because I don't agree and that I seem to lack all respect for the "greatest country in the world".
    Can you make an argument without assigning emotions or motivation?

    And no, Europe isn't a country. I thought you still had schools over there. Of course we have smaller systems, because we are different NATIONS.
    The US has over 300 million people, with a land area of around 3 million square miles. Europe, as a whole, has a little over double the population and land area. Can the sensor connect the dots the intuitive so clearly laid out for him?

    I like Scandinavia in general though. We have different systems, but they are somewhat similar. They are more or less all copied from the swedish law and governing system, but Finland has made it to an art and practice it much better than even Sweden. The public sector is a MUST.
    Finland is not the US. Sweden is not the US.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #15
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    I would be ok with universal healthcare on two conditions:

    1. it's a flat tax
    2. the option exists to pay extra for better care (or private care)

    but then...it wouldn't work with those conditions would it...
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

    Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office
    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  6. #16
    Courage is immortality Valiant's Avatar
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    Alright, we are both from different cultures. I might not know everything about the United States, but I bet you know even less about Europe.
    What I mean is that things are wrong and that the U.S. should look for a model of governing and law that is a little less flawed. To follow good examples. Like Finland, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Switzerland etc.

    Can we both agree upon that the way things are is crazy and bad?

    All states has to obey federal law.
    All states have taxpayers that pay $ to the federal government money.
    Alright. Solution: Make taxpayers pay more, and get healthcare for everyone.
    While you're at it, change the school laws so that it doesn't cost a couple of years income to get an education.
    The fact that everyone in the U.S. has to obey the federal laws makes change possible. And tax payers makes it possible financially.
    BUT, keep the private clinics. And have laws that limit what they can charge a person for getting surgery. Follow what has been done in other countries.

    And just for the record, Michael Moore actually made some kind of documentary about some people that went to Cuba to get healthcare because they couldn't afford it in the U.S.

    It is actually a lot cheaper to pay the flight to canada or mexico and then on to Cuba than to pay 100 000$ for a simple surgery that is free in most western countries.

    And why would that be wrong? If they are so bad, why do they keep progressing against all odds?? Having the best healthcare system in the world etc. Despite the navy blockade and trade boycott that is part of the U.S. horribly wrong foreign policy.

    I kind of wandered off there, but that is mostly because that there is so much that is just WRONG with America.

    And really, the thing about being a sensor is kind of good when it comes to this matter, because sensors are PRACTICAL, and this isn't some kind of abstract issue. It isn't about it being different over there or here, it is simply about you guys across the pond needing to change.


    1. Take a lot more taxes from rich people
    2. Take a little more from ordinary people
    3. Spend it on getting better schools for everyone
    4. Point three will in time generate more doctors
    5. Get better healthcare


    Mightier than the tread of marching armies is the power of an idea whose time has come

  7. #17
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    At about what rate are average people taxed for health care there, YLJ?
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  8. #18
    Courage is immortality Valiant's Avatar
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    We pay about 33% taxes, there is no particular healthcare tax.
    But we earn money accordingly, though. And the results are that we have less bums and that most people produce things or contribute in other ways to society.

    As an electrician I earn about 65 000$ after taxes per year... That isn't half bad.
    Getting higher education this autumn, wich I don't have to pay for And we have a certain system that gives us money while we study (nothing fancy), just enough to live, eat and buy books etc. That we have to pay back later, at a % rate of what we earn later on in life. Not that heavy to pay at all. And there is always the option to work and study at the same time, but that takes a lot more time than to study full-time. And draining.

    Anyway. It is more complicated but the overall results on how things look in most european countries, it is way better.
    The countries named above are the shining good examples, but most european countries have better systems than the U.S., because we have been around for much longer. The U.S. is still a very young nation.

    Mightier than the tread of marching armies is the power of an idea whose time has come

  9. #19
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    The problem with privatized health care is that we do have a government and so there is the possibility of private entities influencing the government to gain an advantage that eventually leads to a monopoly. In a world without government, a purely privatized system would be ideal.

    I've come up with guess work models for a health care system that might work here that are based on compromises of political ideologies.

    1. Federal level government health care- private contributors donate to health care and get tax breaks from the government. In essence, they get to choose where their tax dollars are going. This federal money is then distributed between the states. This system is so the private sector doesn't get too much influence over health care. This is my liberal/conservative compromise, where the rich who pay the majority of the taxes get the benefit of choosing whether or not they contribute but are limited at the federal level at influencing the system.

    2. State level government health care- each state can then choose how to distribute the federal money. Perhaps they will set it up through a charity, or maybe they will choose direct state government control. The state will then decide how much to tax its particular populace for it's health care. This is beneficial because it allows individuals in the state to effectively decide how much they are willing to be taxed for health care. Conservative and Libertarian states may have little or no taxes, whereas Liberal states may have substantially higher taxes. Of course the populace can move between the states and pick the health care package they like best, and that provides competition between states to provide for the best basic health care. This is my libertarian/liberal compromise where the individual has far more control over how they are taxed while providing for the best free market opportunity. However, everyone will have the benefit of the money contributed to the state by the federal government.

    3. Private level health care- provides supplementary insurance (and full package insurance if need be) so that people can get higher quality health care. In states where they choose not to tax the populace, there will be more demand for private insurance. In states where they do tax and provide more state level insurance, the demand will be lower for private insurance. If state level care begins to become ineffective, then voters will move toward private care. If private care becomes too expensive, then voters will move toward acquiring more state care. This is my libertarian/conservative compromise.

    So I set up three levels with my compromises to allow for a check and balances system between the federal, state, and private levels.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
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  10. #20
    Courage is immortality Valiant's Avatar
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    Kiddo, I love you!

    Mightier than the tread of marching armies is the power of an idea whose time has come

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