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  1. #341
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    Well the homocide rate is less than 1 in 100.000 in Germany, about 2 in 100.000 in Finland and 5 in 100.000 (with certain states at a much higher or ower rate: Lousiana lies between 11 and 12). Finland is at the top within Europe (most of Europe lies between 1 and 2), but still under Latvia and Moldova, which are still better off than the US, which comes right after Kenya and Argentina.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._homicide_rate
    Already know the stats. That is no answer. I wanted to know why Finland (with similar gun control to other Continental Europe) has higher murder rates. They have a higher rape rate, too, so I think there might be a cultural element. Same with Canada: the Far North's violent crime rate is high enough to skew the numbers for the entire country, to the point that Canada's rape per capita is higher than the U.S.'s. Nunavut's murder rate per capita is higher than the U.S. average, too.
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  2. #342
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    Our Country was FOUNDED because an armed populace was not willing to bear the yoke of an oppressive and unrepresentative monarchy 1000's of miles away.

    The 2nd Amendment is the one which allows all others to exist.

  3. #343
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Our Country was FOUNDED because an armed populace was not willing to bear the yoke of an oppressive and unrepresentative monarchy 1000's of miles away. The 2nd Amendment is the one which allows all others to exist.
    I've seen it discussed whether the way we decided to emancipate ourselves from England contributed to the bloodiest war ever fought on our soil 80 years later or so, due to our national attitude on how to approach conflict.

    I'm also a contextual person and see specific rules as being formulated for the civilization and time period they were created in. I'm not much for dropping into claims of tradition in order to support a particular rule or right continuing; I'm more interested in, "Does it make sense now?"

    ...But that's all I really want to say about that.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  4. #344
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    Just trying to lay the foundation.

    As long as power corrupts, US citizens will need guns as an important check against the gov't.

    It would be folly to think that the rise and evolution of modern civilization will ever do away with the need for occasional revolution.

  5. #345
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Already know the stats. That is no answer. I wanted to know why Finland (with similar gun control to other Continental Europe) has higher murder rates. They have a higher rape rate, too, so I think there might be a cultural element. Same with Canada: the Far North's violent crime rate is high enough to skew the numbers for the entire country, to the point that Canada's rape per capita is higher than the U.S.'s. Nunavut's murder rate per capita is higher than the U.S. average, too.
    And I was merely putting into perspective what "higher" means, namely still half of that of the US. The difference to Sweden and Norway is not

    It would be interesting to see some info on the geographical distribution of violence in Finland, since I suspect a link to socioeconomic factors (i.e. more poverty = more crime) and the long winters up north that are known to be connected to a high consumption of alcohol. Interestingly, fire arms were only used in 14% of the Finish cases of homicide/manslaughter/murder. So the masses of guns in Finland don't seem to be behind those 2.17 homocides per 100.000.

    The majority of criminals and victims of violent crime are under the influence of alcohol during the act. Statistics show that in homicides 61 to 75 percent, in attempted homicides 71 to 78 percent and in assaults 71 to 73 percent of the offenders have been under the influence of alcohol. During the last two decades the number of drunk offenders has increased. Roughly half of crimes of theft involve the use of alcohol
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Finland
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  6. #346
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Just trying to lay the foundation.
    Yes, and my point was, "There's actually not a foundation for anything, except what has been arbitrarily decided." That "argument out of authority" is getting lots of mileage here.

    As long as power corrupts, US citizens will need guns as an important check against the gov't.
    I have a hard time believing the military and the gun-toters in our culture are enemies.
    Don't they share many similar values? Aren't most of the pro-gun people also pro-America, pro-military, pro-conservative? Like the military?

    And you still don't really justify why guns are your basic answer to government woes, considering violence -- while sometimes necessary -- always comes with cost and might not be the most suitable answer.

    It would be folly to think that the rise and evolution of modern civilization will ever do away with the need for occasional revolution.
    I'm not sure how this addresses anything specific we were discussing here, but whatever.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  7. #347
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Our Country was FOUNDED because an armed populace was not willing to bear the yoke of an oppressive and unrepresentative monarchy 1000's of miles away.

    The 2nd Amendment is the one which allows all others to exist.

  8. #348
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Yes, and my point was, "There's actually not a foundation for anything, except what has been arbitrarily decided." That "argument out of authority" is getting lots of mileage here.
    Not necessarily out of authority if you believe the foundation was correct on the whole, but I feel you. However, the thing that is missing is that the Constitution IS the supreme law of the land. Even if you think it's outdated or disagree with portions (and there are parts I would like amended), that doesn't matter in our country. Unless you repeal the 2nd Amendment, you cannot ban guns, even if you could somehow prove the violence rate would drop off to nil.


    I have a hard time believing the military and the gun-toters in our culture are enemies.
    Don't they share many similar values? Aren't most of the pro-gun people also pro-America, pro-military, pro-conservative? Like the military?
    Not really. You should see how heterogeneous gun owners are as a group. It's amazing. Also, many of them are conservative in a way that is NOT very pro-government/military.


    And you still don't really justify why guns are your basic answer to government woes, considering violence -- while sometimes necessary -- always comes with cost and might not be the most suitable answer.
    Guns are a last resort to a government that hasn't been so hot on personal and economic rights throughout its history.
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  9. #349
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Surprised you quote Mencken if you feel that way. He was one of the great libertarians in America during an extremely unlibertarian time. He'd be cool with everyone packing heat, if they were on their best behavior and generally left him alone.
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  10. #350
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    To err is human. Bach was a christian.

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