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  1. #261
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    nolla, I find it a bit puzzling that you are completely OK with standing out of the way of someone about to commit suicide, yet you are worried about the physical well being of criminals who choose to put the lives of others in peril.
    Listen to me, baby, you got to understand, you're old enough to learn the makings of a man.

  2. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    Don't be so pessimistic, and don't convince yourself that there can only be one correct answer to a profound philosophical question pertaining to the value of human life.
    No, of course. The line will be drawn where ever the people decide to draw it. I'm just lucky I'm on this tribe... And I guess you are pretty comfortable on your side.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    nolla, I find it a bit puzzling that you are completely OK with standing out of the way of someone about to commit suicide, yet you are worried about the physical well being of criminals who choose to put the lives of others in peril.
    Well, I guess there's first the value of life as such. Any life should be saved if possible. The fact that someone is a criminal hardly tells anything about the person. In some cases it might be a good idea to execute them, but not by individual citizens. I don't think anyone alone should have that kind of power.

    Suicide is kinda exception to the rule, since how would my life be free if I didn't have the option to check out? I would be a slave, in a way, if there was no way to get out. But, even more importantly, if suicide wasn't a taboo, but a valid option, you could first get your things in order and talk with your family and friends and say goodbye and so on... It might be that after that you wouldn't even want to kill yourself anymore. The way it is now, people sneak out to commit suicide and everyone feels guilty.

    This doesn't mean, though, that I would let my friend commit suicide without trying to talk some sense to them..

  3. #263
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    Yup, I knew this was a big issue, but this thread has suprised me in that I didn't expect the lines to be drawn so clearly between Americans and Non-Americans. I expected more variety on both sides of the issue and in both geographical camps. That was sort of eye opening.
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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  4. #264
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Hmm... well, I suppose that having guns is just how things are going to be, but I especially don't like the relative lack of regulations on them.

    I think that I would find it easier to live with guns if the following ideas were implemented:

    1. Age limit. You have to be a certain age in order to get a learner's permit to drive a car, so why not a gun?

    2. Fines for killing unarmed trespassers. Just because the guy happened to go onto your property doesn't mean it was right for you to kill him. You should at least pay a fine for the privilege if you insist on exercising it.

    3. Limits on number of guns. You should only be allowed one handgun (for self-defense), and one rifle (for hunting, presumably). Both must be registered. This is mostly to cut down on people buying guns legally and selling them on the black market. You have the right to defend yourself, not to stockpile arms or maintain your own personal armory.

    Perhaps if enough more things like the Arizona shooting, the Columbine shooting, and the JFK assassination happen, people will finally be receptive to some restrictions like these. I can only hope so.

  5. #265
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    Well, I guess there's first the value of life as such. Any life should be saved if possible, because the fact that someone is a criminal hardly tells anything about the person. In some cases it might be a good idea to execute them, but not by individual citizens. I don't think anyone alone should have that kind of power.
    To me the life of the criminal is incidental - the main objective is the safety of the victim. Any law abiding citizen should have the power to effectively protect his person. Until they invent star trek stun phasers, guns is the best we have available.

    And no, the shitty wire stun guns we have now are not good enough for effective protection (one shot with limited range, could be easily stopped by firm clothing, etc)

    Also, I am not particularly interested in a back story of a guy who is holding a knife to my throat.
    Listen to me, baby, you got to understand, you're old enough to learn the makings of a man.

  6. #266
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Hmm... well, I suppose that having guns is just how things are going to be, but I especially don't like the relative lack of regulations on them.

    I think that I would find it easier to live with guns if the following ideas were implemented:

    1. Age limit. You have to be a certain age in order to get a learner's permit to drive a car, so why not a gun?
    There are age limits already. You didn't actually think they sell guns to kids, did you?

    2. Fines for killing unarmed trespassers. Just because the guy happened to go onto your property doesn't mean it was right for you to kill him. You should at least pay a fine for the privilege if you insist on exercising it.
    That's already the law. When you shoot somebody, the police does an investigation. If the DA thinks you overreacted, you'll be brought to court where a "reasonable person standard" will be used - i.e. would a reasonable person feel threatened, etc (there are variations of state laws but that's the gist of it)
    Listen to me, baby, you got to understand, you're old enough to learn the makings of a man.

  7. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    To me the life of the criminal is incidental - the main objective is the safety of the victim. Any law abiding citizen should have the power to effectively protect his person. Until they invent star trek stun phasers, guns is the best we have available.
    Well, to me it seems that very few people are actually dangerous, and I accept the fact that they exists. There are risks, of course, and there might come the situation where I wouldn't mind having a gun with me. But, the way I see it, it is fairly small chance that something like that will happen. Then I think of the possibility of a gun being used in a fist fight or something, and I would rather not have guns around at all, because otherwise well meaning, law abiding citizens will fire them when angry enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Also, I am not particularly interested in a back story of a guy who is holding a knife to my throat.
    Yeah, me neither. And I would use a gun in that situation. But usually it isn't that black and white, and I am pretty worried about the grey area in between.

  8. #268
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    Actually, I see a certain connection between this issue and death penalty (similar division line,though not quite as clear cut) because that too is about the value of the life of a criminal. If you assume that every life is equallyvalid and you can only use violence when your life or health (not property) is immediately threatened, and even then only as much violence as absolutely necessary, you'll go one way, if you assume that a criminal forfeits his right to life and health the moment he breaks into your house or tries to rob a purse, you are also more likely to support the idea that a murder has no right to live and that the state has a right to take a persons life in such a case. Just a spontaneous thought.
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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  9. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    Actually, I see a certain connection between this issue and death penalty (similar division line,though not quite as clear cut) because that too is about the value of the life of a criminal. If you assume that every life is equallyvalid and you can only use violence when your life or health (not property) is immediately threatened, and even then only as much violence as absolutely necessary, you'll go one way, if you assume that a criminal forfeits his right to life and health the moment he breaks into your house or tries to rob a purse, you are also more likely to support the idea that a murder has no right to live and that the state has a right to take a persons life in such a case. Just a spontaneous thought.
    Yeah, I was thinking the same. To me it seems very basic that every life is by default important, until proven to be most likely dangerous for the well being of others in the future. And it even seems somehow a contradiction that in a country that values individual freedom as much as it does, it should be ok to terminate someone's life. I mean, individual freedom can't mean that you have a freedom to tell that someone doesn't have the freedom to live... I don't know if I can explain this well...

  10. #270
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    There are age limits already. You didn't actually think they sell guns to kids, did you?
    They don't sell guns to kids, but as things stand right now, a parent can decide to hand an 8 year-old a loaded rifle, and have them fire at targets with supervision. I think that a parent shouldn't be able to hand a kid a rifle (I mean with real bullets, not BB guns or pellet guns) until they're at least... 12? Though I'd prefer 15/16.


    That's already the law. When you shoot somebody, the police does an investigation. If the DA thinks you overreacted, you'll be brought to court where a "reasonable person standard" will be used - i.e. would a reasonable person feel threatened, etc (there are variations of state laws but that's the gist of it)
    Well, that's a good law, then.

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