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  1. #221
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post

    Delusion. There is a man willing to kill in this community. Steal the apples from his tree and you are shot to death.

    I agree that it should be possible to find a way to ban handguns and, later, more. For if the criminals have none, the victims need none. I also agree that your country is a unique case. Therefore, you will need to start by redefining what it means to defend, to protect, to kill. Self-defense does not mean shooting guns.
    Self-defense does mean shooting guns. It doesn't exclusively pertain to guns, but there are so many beautiful ways to protect people and things. Some of us pay gym memberships and enroll kids into karate classes, some of us own guns without the intention of even using them. Even the fear of guns is a useful tool for self defense. Whatever works for one person is always going to be panned by somebody else, so I say let us have them all.

  2. #222
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    We'll meet again when that man shot your kid for stealing apples instead of striking it with a cane.

  3. #223
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Your 'natural right' originates in Locke's 'Two Treatises of Government', does it not?
    Natural right originally derives from Aristotlean and Thomistic perspectives actually, and it's from that perspective I'm arguing combined with general theories of civic republicanism and communitarianism.

    If so, it is based on the assumption that all men are created and, thus, owned by god. That is a wobbly point of view to argue from.
    No not really, but that discussion will have to wait for another time.

  4. #224
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    I imagine I would be devastated, but it is quite clear that the repercussions of gun ownership combined with human mistakes lead to tragedy even as we tout the situation as one of strong independence and self-reliance. If the sum of the population is unable to cope with this inevitable tragedy, then would it not be reflected in our self-governance?

  5. #225
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Why does it seem like the only people who agree with me in this thread are Europeans? I feel like I'm the only American ever to have an issue with it.

    I wouldn't have thought all (or most) Americans were in favor of gun ownership. It looks like I might be a significant minority on that issue. Guess I should learn to tread carefully on this issue, because I'm likely to agitate a lot of people with my perspectives if I voice them too strongly.

  6. #226
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Natural right originally derives from Aristotlean and Thomistic perspectives actually, and it's from that perspective I'm arguing combined with general theories of civic republicanism and communitarianism.

    No not really, but that discussion will have to wait for another time.
    I was, just for the fun of it, talking about what influenced the constitution of the United States of America. Personally, I base every right on the lack of any right. So self-defense is fine by me.

  7. #227
    Sniffles
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    I've met plenty of European gun-nuts Athenian. Perhaps it should be noted that many of the weapons in America are imported from Europe. Here's an interesting report on that:
    Europe's Lucrative Gun Trade with America:
    ...EU exports of small arms to the United States — shotguns, pistols, rifles and revolvers — earned European businesses a tidy $370 million in 2006, according to statistics from the U.S. Department of Commerce.

    The EU-to-U.S. gun trade has more than doubled in the past five years — with 65.4% of all the guns imported by the United States in 2006 coming from the EU, the statistics show.

    The number one exporter is Italy, which in 2006 exported $141 million of light weapons.
    Glock and Barretta are among the most popular personal handguns - guess where they originate?

  8. #228
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Why does it seem like the only people who agree with me in this thread are Europeans? I feel like I'm the only American ever to have an issue with it.

    I wouldn't have thought all (or most) Americans were in favor of gun ownership. It looks like I might be a significant minority on that issue. Guess I should learn to tread carefully on this issue, because I'm likely to agitate a lot of people with my perspectives if I voice them too strongly.
    Do you honestly think you're going to agitate anybody here, voicing your opinion here, on an internet forum? You are not a martyr, just say what you have to say.

  9. #229
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Maybe you can enlighten us tree-loving Europeans why Americans need guns while others do not.
    Because Europeans posses a communitarian perspective along with a fuedal mindset and political structures (representatives are typically far more accountable to party bosses than to their nominal constituents, leading to a systemic bias toward top-down solutions and corporatism), probably because European states are, by and large, relatively homogonous nation-states originally based on a grand bargain beween the lower-classes and the aristocracy (Germany being the most iconic example). The United States posses an individualistic perspective and a competitive mind-set and political structures that prioritize individual rights, limited government and accountability to constituents over efficiency of governance, probably because we are an immigration-driven state-nation based on classical liberal principles and comprised disproportionately of the descendants of the 'borgoise' and 'petty borgoise' classes who found conditions in Europe untenable and possesed the means to leave the place (such as the refugees from the failed 1848 revolution in Germany, which led to the aforementioned grand bargain).

  10. #230
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Also, the likelihood that the burglar carries a guns decreases with day the new laws are in effect.
    Which would make pointing a gun at them all the more effective. Too bad criminals are generally not very good at planning ahead and rationaly assesing risks, though...

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