I agree with this as well, these threads are just the more political version of someone talking about how you hung up on the coworker with the annoying voice who you just have to be polite to because everyone in the office likes her...(etc, etc.).
Not to be disagreeable, but..... (ok- to be disagreeable- whatever :rolli
You have to consider more than your own thoughts on the flag- sure, you may see it as a nice cultural symbol, but some people associate it with the Klan, and some of us (like me!) tend to associate it with fat white guys with 3 teeth in pickup trucks with gun racks and mud flaps with nekkid ladies on them who have a 6th grade education and hate people of other races "'cause they're stealin' our jobs." A flag is a symbol- and had many racist groups NOT used the stars and bars as thier symbol, it could be a much more legitamate symbol of southern cultural pride today! Blame them
I don't think that anyone who's not been through some sort of oppression or genocide can probably fully grasp what impact the symbol of the oppressor can have (and I'm including myself in that category as well). Have you ever been the victim of a crime? if you have been you could understand that anything that reminds you of your assailant immediatly becomes absolutley revolting to see- a shirt like the one they were wearing, a car like the one they drove... any of that can really have a strong mental, emotional and physical effect on a person. Sure, they're just symbols of the person, they're not the one who did it, but the effect is still there. The reminder is almost as strong as if your assailant was the one standing in front of you :sad:
I know that the symbol is a sign of cultural pride for some people, but it's a symbol of hate for others- the flag has been used by individuals and groups both who have done evil things. You can blame them for why the flag is not accepted in public- they're the ones who ruined it for you
disclaimer- my family is from the south, as were the families of almost everyone in my home county- I'm very used to seeing the Confederate flag around- I'm just pointing out the other point of view!
Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom? -Terry Pratchett
You can blame them for why the flag is not accepted in public- they're the ones who ruined it for you
I think this is really what the objective was. Obviously he can correct me, if I'm wrong, but I don't think he was trying to say that it -isn't- associated with racism and slavery...he was just saying why it -shouldn't- be and how it sucks that people choose symbols like that and then continue the tradition by way of not knowing the history.
"You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."
Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office
than to serve and obey them. - David Hume
But in reasonable terms, you can't go around trying to catch and dispose every possibly offensive symbol. I don't think there's any better example than the swastika. It's such an extremely simplistic shape, I find it totally absurd that anyone should forbid it. It has been in cultures around the world for ages, just like any other geometric pattern. In spite of this, it is thoroughly banned in Germany, and I think that's just retarded.
Another point to be made is that this serves a questionable purpose. Trying to get rid of all these supposed symbols of opression seems like an attempt to forget the past. I can never condone forgetting the past. Is it not true that those who forget history's mistakes are doomed to repeat them?
Trying to get rid of all of the Confederate flags seems like a big act of plugging your ears and going "la-la-la-la-la".
I understand why people would not want their public places loaded with images of graphic violence or sex, but some shapes and symbols?
Last edited by Magic Poriferan; 02-12-2008 at 03:02 PM.
Go to sleep, iguana.
INTP. Type 1>6>5. sx/sp. Live and let live will just amount to might makes right
Kudos to you Magic! Well said! Everyone has made some great posts! I just want to say that I understand why the flag is offensive to some, but what has the flag ever done to you? It is the context put behind the flag that is evil. I believe I said all of this in my first post. People are evil, not symbols. Symbols can be warped to suit an evil man's purpose. But what about the people who see it as something good? Like the crecent moon for example. Many people see the crescent moon as the symbol of Muslim fanatacism. But what of the Muslims who are peaceful? The cross could be seen the same way. Protean, I would ask something of you. The next time you meet someone with a rebel flag, ask them what it means to them. I am not saying you won't find racists, but I bet you will find a lot that aren't. And just remember one thing, no matter what. Everyone is racist in some way or another and at some point or another. It is just human nature.
I once saw a picture of Andre3000 from Outkast wearing a confederate flag. The colors were changed from blue and orange to red, green, and black. Those colors are representative of blood, earth, and the color of African people. I kinda liked that. Would you wear that BMS?
Who's history is more important?
No, I would not wear that, but not because I don't like it. I am not from Africa, so it has no direct meaning to me; however, I am in full support of someone who would wear it. I praise Andre3000 for trying to change the symbolism of the flag! And nobody's history is more important! Being a history major, I happen to think all history is important! And history has to be looked at with an unbiased attitude.
What the problem is, as ByMySword has stated, is not the flag or symbol so much as the people that conveyed their messages through this symbol. The flags and symbols were adopted to represent certain cultures, beliefs and ideas and may be shaped for one purpose but by the time the symbol is retired it may be percepted as something else. The swastika is a perfect example, as is the confederate flag.
The confederate flag, I think, is the best example because racism is a huge issue in my country and state (not to mention it's the reason for the topic). Of course living in Texas, I see the flag quite often, usually in people's homes or garages. You know ByMySword's reason for hanging his, and my step-dad also flies the same flag because to him it represents the South to him, of which he is proud, he is from West Virginia. I've known 4 or 5 people in my life that were from WV, including my grandfather, and none of them were as proud to be from WV as my step-dad is, but he chooses to fly the confederate flag rather than the West Virginian flag (I assume this is because you can't walkt into Wal*Mart and buy a WV flag in Texas). But he does not hang the flag because he is racist. In fact, one of his best friends is a black man and he saw my step-dad's confederate flag hanging but was not offended by it.
I think when it comes down to it, it may just depend on how educated or how uneducated you are on a subject. I'm not very knowledgable on the civil war and so when I see the confederate flag, I do not judge it because I do know that it wasn't originally created to be a symbol of genocide or racism. This isn't because I'm white, but because I don't know enough on the subject to judge it accordingly.. but that may just be because I am an INTP.
Originally Posted by ByMySword
... if you don't know who Neil Peart is, then you're probably going to hell.
.I think when it comes down to it, it may just depend on how educated or how uneducated you are on a subject. I'm not very knowledgable on the civil war and so when I see the confederate flag, I do not judge it because I do know that it wasn't originally created to be a symbol of genocide or racism. This isn't because I'm white, but because I don't know enough on the subject to judge it accordingly.. but that may just be because I am an INTP.
I too have black friends, and they have been to my house. The subject never even came up. And it shouldn't have to. The flag wasn't created as a symbol of genocide and racism. It was created for the formation of a separate country who believed in state's rights. Slavery was just the state right that Union wanted to abolish during that time. The South was afraid mainly of the power the federal govt was gaining. And I don't know if you are aware of this, but less than 10% of the South even owned slaves. Slaves were expensive, so only the rich plantation owners could afford them. My ancestor's never owned slaves and some fought for the South and some fought for the North. And also, there were free blacks who fought for the South! An example of this is Free Black John Noland who rode with Quantrill's Raiders.