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  1. #41
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    Hmm, good question. Not really democratically elected, but a representative of a group (I do not belong to). He is a human being so his murder would be deplorable.
    Would that have applied to Stalin (see, I avoided Hitler), too?

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    He would just be substituted by somebody with a similar agenda, not sure what other political consequences it would have..depends on who the murderer is. If I remember correctly, Lea Rabin says that one of the first thoughts at hearing of her husbands assasination was "please let it have been an Israeli, not a Palestinian", because otherwise there would have been enormous bloodshed.
    I would most certainly enjoy the big media event. I am already looking forward to his natural death.

  2. #42
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    I think people are primarily outraged by murder in general, especially to undermine the will of the majority by killing elected representatives.

  3. #43
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Would that have applied to Stalin (see, I avoided Hitler), too?

    I would most certainly enjoy the big media event. I am already looking forward to his natural death.
    Why hello, uncle Godwin! Difficult, we would have to differenciate. Hitler and Stalin too were human beings, had they been captured, I would have had to oppose their execution on principle, since I am against the death penalty. However, in the context of a war and/or assuming that it would have been a choice between their lifes and the lifes of millions of victims, I would have favoured the lesser evil of killing the one person. It's a question of hierarchy of values.

    In the case of a natural death I would observe the developement with curiousity. As a rule of thumb, I am emotionally indifferent when a political opponent dies a natural death. I can't chear somebody's death, but I wouldn't mourn either.
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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  4. #44
    Sniffles
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    Interesting how this has turned into a contest about whose death one cares about.

  5. #45
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    I was wondering if this shouldn't be moved to a seperate thread. No contest, just trying to answer what seemed to be sincere questions by a nihilistic INTJ robot (no offence) about how and why people react in a certain manner to certain events. That's why I tried to stress the point about the intrinsic value of human life and how a violation of that is a violation of the basis of human society. He was interested in the underlying mechanism, so >I tried to explain from my personal point of view.
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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  6. #46
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Our conversation ended, too. I laughed at the robot, by the way.

  7. #47
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    The police are looking for another suspect, a white male in his 50s, according to Fox News. Given what we know about the shooter, I wonder if he was a tool, manipulated by the suspect.

    I know this is pure speculation, but it's more interesting to me than page after page of people talking about how horrible this is.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  8. #48
    As Long As It Takes.... Redbone's Avatar
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    And if he acted alone AND he's schizophrenic, how much of that will be lost under the current political climate?

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by guesswho View Post
    The gunman is schitzophrenic. His videos are really fucked up... this is what happens when any nutjob can get a gun....this is a serious problem in the US.
    Yes, yes it is, as is blind hatred of Mexican immigrants, part of what was behind this attack...even crazy people can have a shred of reason in their motives, and I believe this was his motive.

    What's crazy about the state of Arizona is that funding has been so cut from social programs for fear of seeming "socialist" that it took an ambulance 45 minutes to even arrive at the scene.

  10. #50
    Symbolic Herald Vasilisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    What's crazy about the state of Arizona is that funding has been so cut from social programs for fear of seeming "socialist" that it took an ambulance 45 minutes to even arrive at the scene.
    Where did you hear that?

    10:10 a.m. - A gunman approaches Giffords and starts shooting her and into a group of 20 to 30 people. Jason Pekau, who works at the Sprint store next to the Safeway, hears 15 to 20 "consistent" rounds of gunfire. Several people with bloodied clothes run toward him. He sees several bodies on the pavement.

    10:11 a.m. - The first 911 call is received about the shooting. It is immediately followed by "many, many" more calls. Soon after, two men tackle a man later identified as suspect Jared Loughner and hold him down until law enforcement arrives.

    10:14 - The first fire and emergency-medical crews are dispatched.

    10:19 - A six-member paramedic rescue company from the Northwest Fire District arrives on the scene but is held off until the scene is secure.

    10:22 - The scene is cleared for safety after suspect is in custody. The man believed to be the shooter previously was pinned down by two civilians.

    10:24 - Second alarm. Additional units arrive. Ultimately, 10 ground ambulances and three air ambulances arrive on the scene. All of the wounded are treated and removed from the scene within 40 minutes. Five patients die on the scene. Another victim, a 9-year-old girl, dies at University Medical Center.


    Read more
    Please don't believe every unsubstantiated, agenda driven thing you hear.



    Born, Died Between Two Tragedies

    CHRISTINA-TAYLOR GREEN
    With a birthday on 9/11, she was patriotic, interested in politics
    by Stephanie Innes
    Arizona Daily Star Arizona Daily Star
    January 9, 2011

    COURTESY OF THE FAMILY Christina-Taylor Green, 9, had just been elected to the student council and wanted to meet Giffords.

    Aspiring politician Christina-Taylor Green was born in the midst of tragedy on Sept. 11, 2001, and died Saturday morning while trying to meet Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords.

    The strong-willed 9-year-old third-grader had gone to meet Giffords with a neighbor when she was shot. She died later at University Medical Center.

    Her neighbor was shot four times and was recovering from surgery Saturday evening.

    Christina-Taylor had just been elected to the student council at Mesa Verde Elementary School and had been interested in politics from a young age, her father, John Green, said Saturday night.

    "She was a good speaker. I could have easily seen her as a politician," her father said.

    The brown-eyed athletic girl had one sibling, an 11-year-old brother named Dallas, and the two loved to go swimming together.

    She'd already told her parents she wanted to attend Penn State one day and have a career that involved helping those less fortunate than her.

    She also loved animals and was a passionate dancer who loved ballet, hip-hop, jazz and gymnastics and was the only girl on her Canyon del Oro Little League baseball team, "The Pirates." She played second base.

    Christina-Taylor came from a family of baseball players. Her grandfather, former major-league pitcher Dallas Green, was team manager for the Philadelphia Phillies when they won the World Series in 1980.

    "She kept up with everyone, she was a strong girl, a very good athlete and a strong swimmer," said her mother, Roxanna Green. "She was interested in everything. She got a guitar for Christmas so her next thing was learning to play guitar."

    Christina-Taylor also enjoyed singing in a church choir at St. Odilia's Catholic Church, where she had received her first Holy Communion in the spring.

    "'Let the children come to me,' Jesus said (Matthew 19:14). Christina is with Him," Roman Catholic Diocese of Tucson Bishop Gerald F. Kicanas wrote in a letter to parishioners sent from Jordan, where he is attending a bishops' meeting.

    Already aware of inequalities in the world around her, Christina-Taylor often repeated the same phrase to her mother: "We are so blessed. We have the best life."

    Her birth date no doubt helped inspire Christina-Taylor's interest in politics, Roxanna Green said. She was one of 50 9/11 babies featured in a book called "Faces of Hope."

    "She was born back east and Sept. 11 affected everyone there, and Christina-Taylor was always very aware of it. She was very patriotic and wearing red, white and blue was really special to her," her mother said.

    "She was all about helping people, and being involved. It's so tragic. She went to learn today and then someone with so much hatred in their heart took the lives of innocent people."
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