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  1. #121
    Member KilgoreTrout's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    But it's not JUST that. Disco's graphic response is also indicative of frustration at the way people with different views from yours will lump you in with idiots and psychos. I can't speak for what kind of conservative Disco is, but I've also felt the sting that results when others fail to acknowledge that my politics might be more nuanced than those of a bleating TV pundit. Liberal and conservative, Republican and Democrat are dichotomies that don't provide anything more than a hint of what any individual's politics are about. A lot of the vitriol on a personal level could be avoided if we remember that.
    I agree and sympathize with you. What you said is part of my point and why I said it goes for both sides. I am not pointing fingers at either side because I think both are equal parts of the problem. The left may speak their peace with a more moderate tone, but it is still a pitting people of different ideologies against each other in a very destructive way. I think the left often dismisses conservatives as being ignorant and the right disdains liberals for being elitist or intellectual snobs.

    I stand by what I said about the photo posted being perfect example of way political debate is failing. Anytime conversation and civil debate are replaced with disrespect and aggression, we move farther away from ever having any kind of concord.
    "Everyone who believes in telekinesis, raise my hand."

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    But it's not JUST that. Disco's graphic response is also indicative of frustration at the way people with different views from yours will lump you in with idiots and psychos. I can't speak for what kind of conservative Disco is, but I've also felt the sting that results when others fail to acknowledge that my politics might be more nuanced than those of a bleating TV pundit. Liberal and conservative, Republican and Democrat are dichotomies that don't provide anything more than a hint of what any individual's politics are about. A lot of the vitriol on a personal level could be avoided if we remember that.
    However, he kept up his nonsense even when I backtracked and clarified, and even apologized, and added a disclaimer that I know rational and intelligent people on the right who actually helped me to become more moderate. That attitude isn't helping anyone.

    I also don't like when people won't admit that the overall party is looking pretty, pretty bad. I don't invest my ego into being a Democrat any longer, because frankly, its not sane to do so. If people won't admit there are people publically making the Republican party look very very tremendously horribly stupid and ignorant, it offends me because I am able to acknowledge that people who are extreme leftists (PETA assholes throwing red paint on people, pedantic asswipes who go around admonishing everyone to be "politically correct," inability to see when people actually aren't being racist or sexist, belief that everyone on the right is motivated by either greed or religion, etc. et al.) I even call some of my extreme leftist acquaintences friends and wish to distance myself from them. It only seems rational to do so. I'm sick and tired of liberals who are whining about Obama making compromises or being too moderate. It's like gee, what the fuck, if he was more extremist or didn't make compromises, he'd get even less accomplished, what don't you get?

    Everything is so divisive. I was watching television about six months ago, there was a politically driven clip on the news, and in that moment everything that had built up in me to that point finally snapped, and was just like "this is fucking ridiculous. What is wrong with these people? All of these people?"

  3. #123
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    But it's not JUST that. Disco's graphic response is also indicative of frustration at the way people with different views from yours will lump you in with idiots and psychos. I can't speak for what kind of conservative Disco is, but I've also felt the sting that results when others fail to acknowledge that my politics might be more nuanced than those of a bleating TV pundit. Liberal and conservative, Republican and Democrat are dichotomies that don't provide anything more than a hint of what any individual's politics are about. A lot of the vitriol on a personal level could be avoided if we remember that.
    How about people start taking responsibility for their own behavior. People need to stop behaving badly, then blaming the "other side" for their bad behavior (or invoking the first amendment, as though that somehow applies). This should be a concept that resonates with conservatives.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #124
    Symbolic Herald Vasilisa's Avatar
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    I understand the desire to examine incidents and the inclination to put them into a larger context very well. But what I fear is happening is that no one is actually examining the incident. It seems like people want to skip analyzing the individuals involved - the murderer, the Congresswoman, the heroes - and jump immediately to ever expanding assumptions. The murderer's thought process and motivations are just instantly ascribed, assumptions are made about Gifford's district and state - and then blame is placed further on the political process and the entire country, even the heroes are quickly placed into some weird conspiracy context.



    Exclusive: Loughner Friend Explains Alleged Gunman's Grudge Against Giffords
    by Nick Bauman
    January 10, 2011
    MotherJones

    Excerpt:
    At 2:00 a.m. on Saturday—about eight hours before he allegedly killed six people and wounded 14, including Rep. Gabrielle Giffords (D-Ariz.), in Tucson—Jared Lee Loughner phoned an old and close friend with whom he had gone to high school and college. The friend, Bryce Tierney, was up late watching TV, but he didn't answer the call. When he later checked his voice mail, he heard a simple message from Loughner: "Hey man, it's Jared. Me and you had good times. Peace out. Later."

    That was it. But later in the day, when Tierney first heard about the Tucson massacre, he had a sickening feeling: "They hadn't released the name, but I said, 'Holy shit, I think it's Jared that did it.'" Tierney tells Mother Jones in an exclusive interview that Loughner held a years-long grudge against Giffords and had repeatedly derided her as a "fake." Loughner's animus toward Giffords intensified after he attended one of her campaign events and she did not, in his view, sufficiently answer a question he had posed, Tierney says. He also describes Loughner as being obsessed with "lucid dreaming"—that is, the idea that conscious dreams are an alternative reality that a person can inhabit and control—and says Loughner became "more interested in this world than our reality." Tierney adds, "I saw his dream journal once. That's the golden piece of evidence. You want to know what goes on in Jared Loughner's mind, there's a dream journal that will tell you everything."

    On Sunday, federal prosecutors charged 22-year-old Loughner with one count of attempting to assassinate a member of Congress, two counts of unlawfully killing a federal employee, and two counts of attempting to kill a federal employee. Giffords was the target of Loughner's rampage, prosecutors say, and the sworn affidavit accompanying the charges mentions that Loughner attended a Giffords "Congress in Your Corner" event in 2007. The affidavit also mentions that police searching a safe in Loughner's home found a letter from Giffords' office thanking the alleged shooter for attending an August 25, 2007 event.*

    Tierney, who's also 22, recalls Loughner complaining about a Giffords event he attended during that period. He's unsure whether it was the same one mentioned in the charges—Loughner "might have gone to some other rallies," he says—but Tierney notes it was a significant moment for Loughner: "He told me that she opened up the floor for questions and he asked a question. The question was, 'What is government if words have no meaning?'"

    "He said, 'Can you believe it, they wouldn't answer my question.' Ever since that, he thought she was fake, he had something against her."

    Giffords' answer, whatever it was, didn't satisfy Loughner. "He said, 'Can you believe it, they wouldn't answer my question,' and I told him, 'Dude, no one's going to answer that,'" Tierney recalls. "Ever since that, he thought she was fake, he had something against her."

    Tierney says he has "no clue" why Loughner might have "shot all those other people." But, he notes, "when I heard Gabrielle Giffords has been shot, I was like 'Oh my God...' For some reason I felt like I knew...I felt like if anyone was going to shoot her, it would be Jared."

    Loughner would occasionally mention Giffords, according to Tierney: "It wasn't a day-in, day-out thing, but maybe once in a while, if Giffords did something that was ridiculous or passed some stupid law or did something stupid, he related that to people. But the thing I remember most is just that question. I don't remember him stalking her or anything." Tierney notes that Loughner did not display any specific political or ideological bent: "It wasn't like he was in a certain party or went to rallies...It's not like he'd go on political rants." TK: TKJared Lee Loughner's mug shot. (Pima County Sheriff's Office)But Loughner did, according to Tierney, believe that government is "fucking us over." He never heard Loughner vent about the perils of "currency," as Loughner did on one YouTube video he created.

    < full story >
    Last edited by Vasilisa; 01-11-2011 at 12:35 PM.
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  5. #125
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    FTR I just got carried away in an off-topic conversation. I'm in full agreement that this happened because he's mentally ill and I stated that repeatedly.

    It doesn't help, though, that a lot of supposedly sane people believe that the government is out to get them.

  6. #126
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    This is totally off-topic, but Ne asks a lot of "what if" questions...it doesn't necessarily mean that we absolutely believe every idea which we suggest is what is going on, which may be more of a perspective of Ni.

    I don't think AJ was conspirating about anything, either. I think he was just...pondering. Ne types do that.

    You pointed out my post not once, but twice, which smacks of you having some underlying agenda of your own. It may not be political, but I took your correction of my misinformation with grace and moved forward, and you still feel compelled to point it out again. Did you think I missed it the first time?

    I wholeheartedly admit when I'm wrong and hate being misinformed. Thanks for the information, but I don't understand what you're trying to accomplish here - whether it's your own political views or just Fe nagging.

  7. #127
    Symbolic Herald Vasilisa's Avatar
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  8. #128
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    I went back and edited to consider other possibilities, like apparent Fe nagging.

  9. #129
    Symbolic Herald Vasilisa's Avatar
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    Or it could affect me personally One never knows.
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    If it affects you personally just say so rather than being passive aggressive.

    Otherwise I'll presume that you're giving us instructions on proper thread etiquette.

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