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  1. #11
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Agreed. It's also worth mentioning that the opposite of "vaccines cause autism" is not "vaccines are totally safe and never hurt anyone."
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  2. #12
    Senior Member Fan.of.Devin's Avatar
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    I'd be interested to hear of any medical procedure that meets the criteria for "totally safe and never hurts anyone".
    INTP 4w5 SX/SP
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  3. #13
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    I think you might've missed my point. I agree that most medical procedures come with risks, some small, others great. A lot of people who are anti-vaccine seem to believe that those of us who vaccinate ourselves or our children believe that there are no risks involved. I don't believe autism is one of those risks, but that doesn't mean there aren't any others. Pointing them out isn't a great argument against vaccines in general if those risks are still outweighed by the protective benefits (both to the individual and to the population as a whole).
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  4. #14
    The Eighth Colour Octarine's Avatar
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    Proof is a funny word, because we all know that GP notes are hardly a flawless record. I also wonder, were the records investigated with consent from the parents? Isn't that an ethical violation too?

    However, the results of the study as originally presented were still rather weak (sample size was tiny) and merely suggested a link, rather than proved it. Such results can actually appear through pure chance due to our confirmation biases (we only note the studies which show an interesting correlation) - only very large studies are immune to this bias, though they can have their own methodological flaws.

    The MMR-autism link was more or less disproven by the following study, where they compared to those who had not received the vaccination and there was a large sample size. http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/...=p4J.EJxP2/wIk

    Vaccines probably don't cause autism, but that doesn't mean they are risk free - see the reported adverse events in the published trials of Gardasil for example - it is in the same ball park as the annual rate of women getting diagnosed with the cancer in question! I really wish these cases would be investigated in depth. If the reactions are understood (and predictable), then the risk could be reduced to close to zero. But the financial incentives are skewed against investigating such cases in sufficient depth.

    Secondly, there are potential risks that we did not even consider until now: http://www.frontiersin.org/virology/...00147/abstract (potential link of vaccinations contaminated with a virus that has been associated with disease in humans)

  5. #15
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    The number of vaccinations performed increases with time due to the ease of the procedure

    The number of children diagnosed with autism increases with time due to increased awareness by both the public and the communities responsible for diagnosing the condition

    Saying vaccinations cause autism is ridiculous. This should be a textbook example of the correlation VS causation conundrums that lead to so many logical fallacies.

    We should document and study the reactions and events pertaining to this ridiculous circus show. I believe we can learn a great deal about humans and their thought processes.

  6. #16
    Tier 1 Member LunaLuminosity's Avatar
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    Yeah, as been said, there is no proven link between autism and vaccines, and those studies have been around for a while now... but that doesn't mean that vaccines are safe. I think there need to be better studies done on that. Like why does it seem that half the people I know who take the flu shot get the flu within a week later? Or why is it that my sister and I got fevers and some other nasty stuff within 24 hours of our shots? But it's still kind of ridiculous to think that vaccines would result in something as complex as the autism spectrum.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    I've heard reasons for autism and other behaviourial symptomatic bio-chemical disorders which are pretty varied, everything from the biometric composition of the population which the parents come from to changes in the chemical composition of the water table or food stuffs as a result of the percentage of the population using chemical contraception. I wouldnt have made connections between the MMR and autism and was suspiscious of this particular source.

    That said myself and my siblings did not receive certain childhood vacinations and suffered with the illnesses when growing up as a result instead, the reasons being to do with the consideration of risk by doctors at the time as a result of allergic reactions or sensitivities to the vacines displayed by members of extended family.

    I dont think people are stupid not to have unshakeable faith in medical procedures or vacines, the archetype of "mad scientist" exists in the collective consciousness for a reason, although equally I dont believe that they should be eager to accept evidence which confirms their prejudices either. There was, and still is, a certain mania among some of parts of the UK which had the greatest refusals of uptake, which reject medicines or pharmacueticals in favour of homeopathy or herbalism.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    The scientific community (and those of us who follow autism-related news and don't have an anti-vaccine agenda) knew that guy was full of shit a long time ago. The only part of this that is news is that now there is actual proof that he purposefully falsified the data.
    Yep, the only part that isn't old news is that this could be deliberate, not just sloppy science.

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...tm_source=grid
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  9. #19
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fan.of.Devin View Post
    I don't believe that vaccines cause autism, but we haven't proven that they do not. We just haven't been able to show that they do.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  10. #20
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Because some people really believed that could be true? Jeez. Humanity is doomed.
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

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