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  2. #22
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I have to say, Lark, I don't agree much with your worldview, but I do appreciate your breadth of thought and contrasting perspective.

    Reading your posts/threads is a like a nice breath of fresh air relative to all the inane crap that's out there, even if I come to different conclusions.
    I was disappointed to read that you think of yourself as a libertarian in another thread.

    When people say that nowadays it provokes the same sort of wariness I used to feel when people described themselves as marxist/socialist back in the early ninties or anarchist/libertarian socialist/left libertarian.

    I just feel, yeah, well, if you're content with that, think you got everything worked out and I'm sure you'll find further evidence for it. I couldnt inhabit that world, its not because of any sort of bolshie rebel streak, I dont really relate to that, not sure I did ever or it could be that I dont relate to its current version in my developed world context.

    I'm skeptical of the theories I'll state I consider more plausible, for instance world systems vs. universal application of economic laws, but at the end of the day they are the ones I find more plausible.

    The whole free market thing bugs me though, its like the pigs in animal farm talking about two legs bad, four legs good, two legs better, there's an expectation of completely different behaviour from firms in the economy to government when they are usually structured similarly, peopled by the same class or sort of people with the same motives, unless they are a small business, and sometimes even then, they are relatively innured from market forces and consumer sovereignty's pretty much as great a myth as the commons.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    Well I never claimed to be an expert.

    On the other hand I am from a country that basically does not have a free market and it never did. Not to mention that at least half of the population doesn't know what stocks or bonds really are.


    So all of you can feel free to enlighten me on the subject. I will listen.
    You associate a free market with stocks and bonds?

  4. #24
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    You associate a free market with stocks and bonds?
    I consider them a part of the game.
    (if that is what you are asking)

  5. #25
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    You associate a free market with stocks and bonds?
    Stocks might not be particularly useful or necessary, but bonds are most definitely a building block of any advanced economy. It's fractioned debt. No big firm would exist without a bond-equivalent.
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

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    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    I still am waiting the explanation of why this is wrong.

  7. #27
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robopop View Post
    It seems the US military is already preparing for some kind of "worst case scenario" in the near future, making contingency plans for an all out economic collapse, civil unrest situation.

    Here's the article:
    The irony is the rich undermine themselves.
    Panic is not right, or wrong. It is only stupid.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I was disappointed to read that you think of yourself as a libertarian in another thread.


    To be perfectly honest, I'm not an ideologue, so I'm really not even a libertarian, when it gets down to it.

    I just think libertarians are far better than most of the other mainstream alternatives: statists, liberals, and conservatives.

    Also, there are many different versions of libertarianism, and, if I'd have to align myself under some ideology, I'd consider myself a moderate one.

    If anything, I'd call myself a pragmatist. I believe in doing what works. I like compromise. I like balance. I like educated decisions.

    So long as that kind of thinking is present, I'm pretty much down for anything.

    Especially in these times; these are the times for innovative solutions.

    I'm just not down for idiotic "solutions".

    They gotta be damn well reasoned.

    And fitting/relevant/important.

    Otherwise, what's the point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'm skeptical of the theories I'll state I consider more plausible, for instance world systems vs. universal application of economic laws, but at the end of the day they are the ones I find more plausible.
    I'm not any libertarian dogmatist.

    In my mind, dogmatism is one of the enemies.

    On the other side, skepticism is another enemy, as it believes nothing can be done right (this is a much less common enemy, but it's one you must not fall prey to yourself).

    The vast majority are dogmatists; the cynical minority tend to be skeptics; and then, right in the middle there, there are critically thinking pragmatists.

    They look at dogmatists with their ideologies as fools, and therefore engage in a healthy dose of skepticism, but they don't turn skepticism into its own ideology.

    To do so would be to fall prey to the same kind of dogmatism of all the fools the skeptics claim to despise, but nevertheless end up joining the ranks of...

    If I have an ideology, and something I hold to dogmatically, it is critical thinking, and that is all.

    As such, I was openly decrying the free-market ideology being pushed on me at university and being trumpeted by the Republicans during the pre-crisis 2000s.

    In my opinion, any time an ideology becomes so dominant, it is just waiting to have its holes tear wide open and reveal its emptiness to the world.

    But, that being said, I'd much rather have a market economy (with proper regulation) than a centralized command economy.

    And I strongly prefer fiscal conservatism (or, rather, responsibility) over fiscal liberalism (or, rather, irresponsibility).

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    ...there's an expectation of completely different behaviour from firms in the economy to government when they are usually structured similarly, peopled by the same class or sort of people with the same motives...
    I'm not sure what you're griping about here.

    What behavior exactly are you referring to?

    I think the belief is that, in a properly regulated market economy, firms will produce goods and services far more efficiently than will a government bureaucracy.

    With the reason being that they are economically driven to do so, whereas government has no such motive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    ...unless they are a small business, and sometimes even then, they are relatively innured from market forces...
    Maybe where you come from this is more the case?

    In America, I believe you'll find almost every small business owner does not feel "inured from market forces".

    And large corporations actually do go bankrupt, and stocks actually do go up and down, based on changing profit expectations (et al).

    As someone who analyzes (sometimes bankrupt) companies and industries for a living, I assure you, I know it to be the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    ...and consumer sovereignty's pretty much as great a myth as the commons.
    Tell that to Dell. Or GM. Or Borders. Or Kmart. Or countless other corporations struggling and striving to satisfy the customer, at the right price, better than the competition.

    No offense, but you sound dogmatically anti-capitalistic, and dogmatically anti-free-market.

    If I were to hear someone argue with as much fervor in favor of free markets as you would seem to argue against them, I'd probably not align myself with them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    I still am waiting the explanation of why this is wrong.
    Sorry, totally forgot about this thread.

    I'm winding down for the night, but I'll try to get to it tomorrow.

    As I said in my original post: it's not that you're totally off base about everything, it's just that you demonstrate, in several things you said, a weakness in economic understanding.

    It becomes complex, nuanced, and subtle, in that its about relative proportions of importance, overemphasis and/or exaggeration of certain issues, absence of key mitigating issues, etc.

    In other words, any comprehensive answer I provide will be lengthy, but I will try to get to it tomorrow.

  9. #29
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    I still am waiting the explanation of why this is wrong.
    Explanation is a hand out.
    It is not possible to hand out answers.
    You can (in very rare cases) hand out questions.
    A thought is not a hand out.

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