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  1. #11
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    Maybe they're just like the Boy Scouts and want to be prepared.

    Couldn't hurt, though it's a creepy thought.

    I know an ISTJ, he thinks we're in deep shit because so many of our manufacturing jobs have gone over seas, and we're in debt to China. That's just what he thinks. I'm not saying that I actually am educated enough on the subject of global economic breakdown to agree or disagree.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Maybe they're just like the Boy Scouts and want to be prepared.

    Couldn't hurt, though it's a creepy thought.

    I know an ISTJ, he thinks we're in deep shit because so many of our manufacturing jobs have gone over seas, and we're in debt to China. That's just what he thinks. I'm not saying that I actually am educated enough on the subject of global economic breakdown to agree or disagree.
    I think public perception is way off regarding China and US debt. Only about 30% of the debt is held by foreigners. Nearly $9 trillion is held domestically. China is holding less than $1 trillion out of ~$13 trillion. My point being, I think fears about China and the debt are overblown.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #13
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    It seems like the military has every interest in itself to do whatever it can to keep it's budget and capabilities to be as much as it can - so if there is a possible doomsday scenario, sure, soak it up - that way you seem like you're being innovative.

    I can only hope that, as FDG said, actual R&D for important technologies would benefit from such 'planning', and something would come from it. I doubt that will happen, but, I'll be open and say that I'm cynical - I don't think it's so much the military of the US as much as it is those that profit from the war economy -- the people who make things for the military to buy.

    ---

    If the military is going to be worried about China, they should be worrying about strategic minerals, rare earths, resources, and other means to make new technologies. Too bad the US is already lightyears behind China in that regard.

    ---
    On the other hand, maybe Michale Ruppert (Collapse) has a point. Perhaps the military's preparation is indicative of the amount of faith certain people have in the current economy.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I think public perception is way off regarding China and US debt. Only about 30% of the debt is held by foreigners. Nearly $9 trillion is held domestically. China is holding less than $1 trillion out of ~$13 trillion. My point being, I think fears about China and the debt are overblown.
    I am neither American or economic expert but I will take my chances.




    13/3 = 4.33

    While on the other hand the federal budget from USA will be about 3.7 trillion in 2011.

    What means that you already owe the world more than one of your federal budges. That is a huge amout of money if you think about it. Since you need to give someone 4.3 trillion dollars in cash or good/services and you won't earn anything from that. Just imagine how it would look like that you pay that in cash ?
    Would you even have enough bills in the country to pay that or you would barely manage to pay that with out having anything left for your domestic economy ?


    Plus you have that 9 trillion of debt inside your own borders that you have mentioned. What implys that the country's economy is in chaos. Since everyone owe everyone and it will take some time to fix that.


    And all of that is just the begining of the real problem. Which is that United States can't compete with anyone under the rules of free market.

    1.You are major oil importer not exporter.
    2.The workforce in Asia and Brazil is too cheap, you simply can't compete with them when it comes to consumer goods.
    3.The the classic third word countries simply don't have the money to buy anything from you.
    4.And then you have you traditional allies like Europe and Japan that are basically already in debt more than you are and huge chunks or their workforce will go into the retirement soon.


    I admit 30% isn't that much actually but how can you stop the trend ? That is the really question. So if you can't turn the trend or you can barely do it then this is somthing that you should worry about.


    Especially since if you fail in this endevour you only solution wil be a political or militaristic one. And I know how much you as nation like to rely on your governments and Washington politics.


    Did I got something wrong ?

  5. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    And all of that is just the begining of the real problem. Which is that United States can't compete with anyone under the rules of free market.
    Wow, wow, wow, hang on, the free market is whatever the Washington Consensus says it is.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    Did I got something wrong ?
    Yes.

    I love when people on this forum talk about economics, but clearly don't have a sound understanding of it.

    It's like listening to typology n00bs leaving out all kinds of relevant information, and defining things extremely poorly.

    You just don't know whether it's worth it to try and help them out or not...

    Which is not to say that you're totally off base, cuz some of the things you said were accurate...

    But, in the same breath, there was a lot that demonstrated a weak understanding of economics, and the real issues at hand.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Wow, wow, wow, hang on, the free market is whatever the Washington Consensus says it is.
    Sorry to ask, but, in these economic times, and over this method of communication, I can't tell whether you're being bitter or ironic...?

  8. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Sorry to ask, but, in the economic times, and over this method of communication, I can't tell whether you're being bitter or ironic...?
    I'm being perfectly honest.

    I'm much, much more inclined to believe world systems theories or the transnational capitalist class theories than I am to believe that all nations are equally governed by economics, the history of the world has been the history of class struggles and that shit trumphs economics any day of the week.

    In fact I believe that neo-liberal economics is preserved purely by virtue of the fact that its expedient and useful ideologically to ruling classes, otherwise it'd be dumped, its expedient because it'll maximise revenues, drive down costs and prove normatively popular never mind result in any moral qualms or criticism.

    You better believe that all the world trade summits at which struggling under developed nations have tried to establish common agricultural or other trade policies like the EU or US and been threatened with having whatever passes for their assets parcelled up and sold of piecemeal by the IMF and WTO goes to show it.

    People in the first world who rightly complain about the banks, investors and enterprises trying to make inroads into public utilities or things like water dont realise its not simply because they've run out of other ways to turn a buck but because developed world nations have had to demostrate they can conform to the sorts of orthodoxy in their economies which has always been demanded of the developing world. Even at that whatever pain is felt in the developing world is general small in comparison to nations which have pretty much become the property lock stock and barrel of a foreign bank.

    One of the "rules" of free markets is competition but competition isnt a perpetual thing, once a race is run its run, there is a winner, there is a loser, the cola wars are over for instance. So you take competition between nation states on a global scale, not everyone starts out from the same place, its like some runners where cross the finish line before the starting pistol even fired but wait, they just gave those entering the race lead shoes to take part, well if they're fit they'll be able to run it wont they?

    So supposing there's rules and they apply to everyone the same is just stupid, I fully expect that some nations will be able to compete better than others if trends favouring manufacturing and industrial capital versus pure financial capital continue but anyone who thinks that's permanent is kidding themselves. The UK at least made it plain they where willing to par back social spending totally and cut off entire generations from any educational or employment prospects what so ever in order to recapitalise their banks and they arent as hard nosed as the US.

  9. #19
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    I have to say, Lark, I don't agree much with your worldview, but I do appreciate your breadth of thought and contrasting perspective.

    Reading your posts/threads is a like a nice breath of fresh air relative to all the inane crap that's out there, even if I come to different conclusions.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Yes.

    I love when people on this forum talk about economics, but clearly don't know have a sound understanding of it.

    It's like listening to typology n00bs leaving out all kinds of relevant information, and defining things extremely poorly.

    You just don't know whether it's worth it to try and help them out or not...

    Which is not to say that you're totally off base, cuz some of the things you said were accurate...

    But, in the same breath, there was a lot that demonstrated a weak understanding of economics, and the real issues at hand.


    Well I never claimed to be an expert.

    On the other hand I am from a country that basically does not have a free market and it never did. Not to mention that at least half of the population doesn't know what stocks or bonds really are.


    So all of you can feel free to enlighten me on the subject. I will listen.

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