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View Poll Results: Do you think passing this legislation will truly help?

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27. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, I think it's a step in the right direction.

    14 51.85%
  • Yes, but it's only the tip of what really needs to be done.

    10 37.04%
  • No, this this repeal is gilded.

    0 0%
  • I don't care either way if it's repealed or not.

    3 11.11%
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Results 41 to 50 of 54

  1. #41
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Meanwhile, the UN removes sexual orientation from a list of invalid reasons to commit heinous crimes against humanity

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...-un-resolution

  2. #42
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    ^^from that link, related but far more concerning, 2/3 of all UN members have not signed a statement condemning human rights violations committed based on sexual orientation/identity, "especially with regard to the death penalty" WTF. I know some countries seem to be ruled by backwards savages, but 2/3 of the UN?
    -end of thread-

  3. #43
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    As if we needed another example of the shortcomings of democracy...

    I'm afraid more and more are only going to lose faith

  4. #44
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Thanks for your rational review of why you have reservations about DADT's repeal, I appreciate hearing what you have to say, and it gives everyone a better understanding of the dynamics involved in the practical implementation of such a repeal.

    Overall, in terms of actual impact to service people, it sounds like there's almost no way to win. Damned if you do, damned if you DADT.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I fear three things with this repeal:
    - The command of the company still has a lot of control, no matter how you look at it. Because of this.. if a command has hate in their heart towards an openly gay soldier, it's even easier to find 'perception'-based criteria for negative statements and actions. UCMJ will accept the perception of a relationship to be there. Sexual harrassment will be easy to find as well.. it only takes one hateful person to claim sexual harrassment for an investigation to go on their record.
    That seems to be a realistic criticism in the Here and Now. It's the same thing that would also occur in a civilian environment when any disliked subset would be accorded equal treatment.

    - Because of point one, they won't be able to be vocal at all. Don't ask don't tell will quietly remain because it means less trouble for the homosexual servicemen.
    So did they ever have the option before of being open? I'm simply saying if they protested before, they effectively outed themselves during an investigation. Nothing has changed right this moment in terms of realistic day-to-day life within the military. I think most gay people in the military will remain silent as well, it's just easier than dealing with the shit. As of right now, I think being trans is still grounds for dismissal, and political leaders have advised transpeople not to bother coming out unless you want to be booted.

    The on-paper victory will distract from this core problem, and you'll effectively reinforce the policy that has been in place with women for years already. Nothing is fixed, but things look fixed, so everyone's happy. Except the people that continue to be victims of perception and shitty commands and such.
    I agree with that as well in terms of "right this moment."

    But I am looking at this in terms of the Big Picture. The way things were, no progress was being made whatsoever. And the same mentalities that drove the military were being entrenched, with the same stigma attached to gay people. It would be very easy to say, "Gay people don't belong in the military / something is wrong with gay people because the military kicks them out if they are discovered." Discrimination was actively promoted and reinforced by the system.

    What happened is the rules of the system have now been changed.

    The people comprising the system itself have not necessarily changed. In fact, within the next few years, there will no doubt be some friction and butting of heads as people work through this. But discrimination against gays is no longer endorsed by the system itself, it is only being endorsed by some human beings who operate in that system and maintain that system. And those people are no longer justified by the system to act the way they were acting. It will still take some time -- probably years -- for attitudes to continue to change, but I think it's a big deal for discrimination to not be official endorsed even if practically nothing will change for some time.

    This is the way our culture typically works, although I think black rights and women rights had reached more support in the civilian population before those laws passed. Still, the military is strongly resistant to OUTSIDE influence, unlike our culture (which had a lot of influx from other cultures and a vast melting pot of ideas); they are already a strongly homogeneous environment, so the only way to break things open is to change the rules of the structure.

    Looking at a slightly different topic: It's the same reason that conservative religions continue to treat homosexuals like second-class citizens. It is part of their dogma to do so. If it wasn't in the dogma, then the people within that system that only disparage homosexuals because they think their dogma encourages that would shift back toward a more neutral position, and those who were strongly anti-homosexual would find no real traction in stated policy. Eventually things would change.

    I think we needed to change the military dogma in order to remove legal and organizational support for discrimination against gays. Eventually it will pay off, but it might not be today, and it might take a few years or a decade or more until things really start to change.

    And meanwhile our culture itself continues to change, and that cultural change will interact with the military change. I see same-sex marriage as eventually being legal in the US, even if it takes another twenty years to reach that point. By the time that happens, the cultural mentality toward gays will be different, and those younger people will be populating the military, and the military will no longer be permitted an overt culture of discrimination, and so the military makeup will also change.

    I knew people overseas that were horrible people civilian-side.. they were not people I would ever associate with in my personal life. They made bad choices, did bad things... but, when it came to serving, and doing their job, they did just as well as anyone else. There is something about that that is uniquely military. I can't imagine homosexuals acting any other way honestly. The gayest, flashiest man on earth could enlist.. and I think the military mentality will reside in his mind and actions enough to do his job well.
    Good point, and I'm hoping that that attitude is what most of the service members pursue -- excellence in doing their job and not letting themselves get hung up on someone's orientation. It's the same thing I am expected to do in a professional capacity at work.

    Quote Originally Posted by beargryllz
    I'm afraid more and more are only going to lose faith
    Frankly, I think our culture needs to grow up.

    There is no silver bullet.
    Change is hard-fought and hard-won.

    If someone was expecting the DADT repeal to change things overnight, then their expectations are rather adolescent, that is NOT how people or life works.

    It's a long term process, and people have to keep their noses to the grindstone and continue to push forward until things finally realign.

    But I guess we can all see, based on how fast constituents turned on Obama when he proved not to be the second coming of Jesus and fix things within a year, that our culture has a lot of trouble with understanding incremental progress and long-term positioning that leads to eventual success. The US is typically a band-aid, short-term gratification country right now.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #45
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    kyuuei, the military has got to start somewhere or servicemen and women will legally be allowed to be discharged for inhumane reasons. Full acceptance will take much, much longer.

    Even today within an office environment, women still face prejudice. Same goes for visible minorities. But it's hella lot better than it once was.

    My only concern would be in reference to the repeal being a rallying point for future elections. Between healthcare, this repeal and military policy in the Middle-east aka Iraq, it should be interesting to observe the next election.

  6. #46
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
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    I think that it's some of both. Maybe homophobia on the field, and sexual repression on the executive level?
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

    sCueI (primary Inquisition)

  7. #47
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    As far as homophobia and sexual repression are concerned, probably a bit of both on every level. Sexuality appears to go hand-in-hand with drama since quite often, it's tied up with emotions on one or both sides. Maybe the military is saying, leave your sexuality at the door prior to entering.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    Meanwhile, the UN removes sexual orientation from a list of invalid reasons to commit heinous crimes against humanity


    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...-un-resolution
    The countries that voted yes and no is interesting. But not surprising. A few was.

  9. #49
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    sleepy, your link doesn't work.
    -end of thread-

  10. #50
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    Tried to fix it.

    copy paste
    Among those, vote with YAY:

    Afghanistan, Algeria, Angola, Azerbaijan, Bahamas, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Belize, Benin, Botswana, Brunei Dar-Sala, Burkina Faso, Burundi, Cameroon, China, Comoros, Congo, Cote d’Ivoire, Cuba, Democratic People's Republic of Korea, Democratic Republic of Congo, Djibouti, Egypt, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Ghana, Grenada, Guyana, Haiti, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Jamaica, Jordan, Kazakhstan, Kenya, Kuwait, Lebanon, Lesotho, Liberia, Libya, Madagascar, Malawi, Malaysia, Maldives, Mali, Morocco, Mozambique, Myanmar, Namibia, Niger, Nigeria, Oman, Pakistan, Qatar, Russian Federation, Rwanda, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and Grenadines, Saudi Arabia, Senegal, Sierra Leone, Somalia, South Africa, Sudan, Suriname, Swaziland, Syrian Arab Republic, Tajikistan, Tunisia, Uganda, United Arab Emirates, United Republic of Tanzania, Uzbekistan, Viet Nam, Yemen, Zambia, Zimbabwe

    Voted with NAY:

    Andorra, Argentina, Armenia, Australia, Austria, Belgium, Bhutan, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Brazil, Bulgaria, Canada, Chile, Costa Rica, Croatia, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, El Salvador, Estonia, Finland, France, Georgia, Germany, Greece, Guatemala, Hungary, Iceland, India, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Japan, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Mexico, Micronesia (FS), Monaco, Montenegro, Nepal, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Poland, Portugal, Republic of Korea, Republic of Moldova, Romania, Samoa, San Marino, Serbia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, Timor-Leste, Ukraine, United Kingdom, United States of America, Uruguay, Venezuela

    Abstained:

    Antigua-Barbuda, Barbados, Belarus, Cambodia, Cape Verde, Colombia, Fiji, Mauritius, Mongolia, Papau New Guinea, Philippines, Singapore, Sri Lanka, Thailand, Trinidad and Tobago, Tuvalu, Vanuatu

    Absent:

    Albania, Bolivia, Central African Republic, Chad, Dominica, Equatorial Guinea, Gabon, Gambia, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Honduras, Kiribati, Kyrgyzstan, Lao People's Democratic Republic, Marshall Island, Mauritania, Nauru, Nicaragua, Palau, Sao Tome Principe, Seychelles, Solomon Islands, Togo, Tonga, Turkey, Turkmenistan

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