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  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'm unsure about how you are defining universally true so I'll not be able to provide an answer let alone a satisfactory one until you do so.
    This is a lengthy discussion. It involves defining what truth is and what realities are. Here's a link to a lengthy discussion about this..http://forums.philosophyforums.com/t...uth-36097.html

  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    It appears to me that you believe there is an objective truth..
    I don't. Well, I do..but I don't think I or anyone has access to it. So for all intents and purposes I operate like I don't. Like I said, this is a horribly lengthy topic.

    As for what my personal beliefs about the whole Middle East thing are...I don't think I've stated my position yet.

  3. #73
    The Eighth Colour Octarine's Avatar
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    Instead of this silly debate, how about we talk about some of the facts presented in the article?
    Such as the differences in perception in countries with higher standards of living? The struggle between modernizers and fundamentalists is another interesting topic.
    "Silent majority" is a bit disingenuous - in a country where fundamentalists dominate politics, there can be serious consequences if you rock the boat. There also seems to be an increasing undercurrent towards preference for democracy.

  4. #74
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mkenya View Post
    Essentially you're saying "I don't care what your goals or principals are, we're doing it my way."

    I don't understand the mindset that allows someone to do that when they know they aren't operating on truth rather just on their opinion. It seems like a very dangerous thing to do in my mind.

    I guess this comes down to "what role do subjective goals that affect other unwilling people have in the world?" My answer to that would be a very limited role/ only to be used when absolutely necessary.
    1.) Ah, irony.

    2.) Enlighten me, what are some of these wholly objective universal truths that I'm missing?

    3.) That's kinda the point, which you seem to have missed; protecting freedom of conscience is (in addition to its subjective value) absolutely necessary for any progress to be made toward your stated (and, uh, totally subjective) goal in that last sentence.

  5. #75
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Architectonic View Post

    Such as the differences in perception in countries with higher standards of living?

    The struggle between modernizers and fundamentalists is another interesting topic.

    "Silent majority" is a bit disingenuous - in a country where fundamentalists dominate politics, there can be serious consequences if you rock the boat.

    There also seems to be an increasing undercurrent towards preference for democracy.
    Jordan might actually have a higher standard of living than Indonesia (I'll need to check on that-[I checked, Jordan is ranked higher on the Human Development Index than either Indonesia or Turkey-here's a link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...elopment_Index ]): there is some correlation, but any causation is iffy, and numerous countries with lower standards of living have far less extremist beliefs on this issue.

    I think its revealing what purported modernists do not regard as fundamentalism.

    A dynamic that retards religious (and other) reform movements, thereby perpetuating rephrensible beliefs and/or institutions into the modern era: a classic effect of illiberal democracy, which by definition has widespread popular support. Societal beliefs that are most necessary for societal reform are precisely the beliefs that are most taboo to an overwhelming majority of Muslims in Egypt, Pakistan and Jordan. [Edit: On a topical note, the reformist governor of Punjab province in Pakistan has just been executed by his own bodyguard for opposing the death penalty for 'blasphemy'....the bodyguard belonged to a 'moderate' sect and has gained widespread accolads from the religious establishment of that sect: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110105/...istan_politics ]

    Yes, demand for procedural democracy is nearly universal in the Muslim world.

  6. #76
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    I was looking at more than just the Hezbollah/Hamas question when I noted the effects of standards of living.

    By PPP per capita: (2010 est)

    Lebanon $14,988
    Turkey $13,392
    Egypt $6,347
    Jordan $5,759
    Indonesia $4,379
    Pakistan $2,713
    Nigeria $2,249

    Thus I would predict a strong "effect" in Lebanon, Turkey. Lebanon is interesting because they have been polarized by war, yet there are still some positive trends emerging.
    I also wonder why the above study did not investigate Iran?

    Can you elaborate on what you mean by "what purported modernists do not regard as fundamentalism". (with links to such surveys)
    Last edited by Octarine; 01-07-2011 at 07:57 PM. Reason: formatting

  7. #77
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Architectonic View Post
    I was looking at more than just the Hezbollah/Hamas question when I noted the effects of standards of living.

    By PPP per capita: (2010 est)

    Lebanon $14,988
    Turkey $13,392
    Egypt $6,347
    Jordan $5,759
    Indonesia $4,379
    Pakistan $2,713

    Thus I would predict a strong "effect" in Lebanon, Turkey. Lebanon is interesting because they have been polarized by war, yet there are still some positive trends emerging.

    I also wonder why the above study did not investigate Iran?

    Can you elaborate on what you mean by "what purported modernists do not regard as fundamentalism". (with links to such surveys)
    Nigeria $2,249
    1.) My primary concern on this thread (which is different from the primary concern of the study) is belief in the death penalty for apostasy. While support for militant (as opposed to extremist) beliefs is important, its mostly an ephemeral symptom of the larger problem. For instance, experience with the effect of militant groups on their own society has probably caused support for such organizations to decline drastically in Pakistan, but it hasn't had an appreciable effect on core beliefs.

    2.) By whatever measurement you use, the causation is iffy, and certainly neither necessary nor sufficient. For example, why the drastic difference between Turkey and the oil-states (I think its pretty safe to assume there is one, though the latter are not included in this poll) if long-term standard of living is the decisive factor? Why is there a virtual societal consensus in Egypt, Jordan, and (to a slightly lesser extent) Pakistan toward the death penalty on apostates, while its a (large) minority position in Indonesia? In the case of Lebanon, that was a nice surprise and a cause for reevaluating the implications of Hezbollah/Hamas support in that country.

    3.) I don't know, a lot more countries should have been included.

    4.) Compare the numbers of those who consider themselves 'modernists' with the numbers who support the death penalty on apostates.

  8. #78
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Architectonic View Post
    I was looking at more than just the Hezbollah/Hamas question when I noted the effects of standards of living.

    By PPP per capita: (2010 est)

    Lebanon $14,988
    Turkey $13,392
    Egypt $6,347
    Jordan $5,759
    Indonesia $4,379
    Pakistan $2,713

    Thus I would predict a strong "effect" in Lebanon, Turkey. Lebanon is interesting because they have been polarized by war, yet there are still some positive trends emerging.
    I also wonder why the above study did not investigate Iran?

    Can you elaborate on what you mean by "what purported modernists do not regard as fundamentalism". (with links to such surveys)
    Nigeria $2,249
    Yeah, if standard of living was that significant there wouldnt be as many suicidal terrorists harking from the developed world, plus in the UK some of their cohorts have described how the suicide bombers who struck london laughed at how they could use geo-politics, including development, to guilt trip westerners, in each of their suicide note videos they finished by saying it was islam prompted them to their actions, so everything else is besides the point.

  9. #79
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    I dislike playing the race card, but perhaps there is a difference between Arab moslems, South Asian moslems and Southeast Asian moslems
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