User Tag List

First 34567 Last

Results 41 to 50 of 79

  1. #41
    Tempbanned
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    6w5 sx/so
    Posts
    8,162

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    Irrelevant is probably the incorrect word. It is, however, fallacious to label a majority's consensus as extremist in the context of the population being questioned. One could compare various populations and assign relative values to each of them, but claiming that 3/4s of any nation's population can hold extremist views only serves to display a misunderstanding of the definition of extreme. When a majority reaches a consensus, whatever it may be, it can no longer be considered extreme.
    So if you were to poll a group of extremists about their extremist views, then this would automatically recuse them from being extremists, as they would constitute a majority of the population polled, and thus, by definition, could not be extremists?

    Very worthwhile response...

    I applaud the intelligence displayed in this appraisal.


  2. #42
    Probably Most Brilliant Craft's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w7 sx/so
    Socionics
    N/A
    Posts
    1,200

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Your 'point' being that the citizens of a country must be forcibly limited to an extremely narrow set of beliefs and preferences in order for societies to become developed and prosperous?
    Superficially*(Politically). In the end, beliefs are only mental.

    My point was that without basic religious freedom, Pakistan (and other large countries with a religiously diverse* populations) will be doomed to perpetual strife and economic stagnation as a result of essentially following your advice, and that all of this is predictable.
    Why? I could understand struggle coming from one religion against another but this case of violating the freedom of "deserters" is another matter. In this case, religious freedom is only restricted to those who aren't originally part of the religion.

  3. #43
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    7w8
    Socionics
    ENTj
    Posts
    5,908

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Living standards and social indicators are astronomically better in contemporary Egypt than in medieval Europe, and the same indicators are lower in dozens of countres with less 'medieval' beliefs regarding religious freedom.
    LOL, how do you compute social indicators for medieval europe? Are you kidding? Plus, social indicators are just arbitrary meters...have you been to Egypt? Did you see how people live in its villages? Without electric current, barely enough water, etc...
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  4. #44
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    3,705

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Craft View Post
    Superficially*(Politically). In the end, beliefs are only mental.


    Why? I could understand struggle coming from one religion against another but this case of violating the freedom of "deserters" is another matter. In this case, religious freedom is only restricted to those who aren't originally part of the religion.
    1.) (Mental) beliefs have consequences, and belief in the freedom of conscience is a first principle from which all other freedoms are ultimately derived. In any event, the number of dissenters within Pakistan is already too large to be controlled, especially in light of modern media and the educational requirements of a productive economy, and attempts to enforce such a conformity of belief are both futile and costly in terms of the social cohesion you claim to seek.

    2.) While sharing a common religion, Pakistani Muslims belong to a wide variety of religious traditions within Islam, both in the transnational sense (Sunni, Shiite, Sufi etc.) and otherwise (culturally particular traditions wthin the societies of the Sindh, Punjabi, Pashtun, Baluch, etc). These various sects often disagree, and when you combine that with the belief that its okay (in some instances even religiously mandated) to kill over religious differences...well, the end result is anything but organized, and the situation in Pakistan reflects this. Its also very easy to label different Muslim traditions as heretical and therefore their adherents as apostates, which both entrenches violence and hostility between different Muslim sects and makes peaceful reform from within Muslim sects (reform that might facilitate social cohesion and economic productivity in light of changing conditions) that adhere to this belief very very difficult.

  5. #45
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    3,705

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    LOL, how do you compute social indicators for medieval europe?

    Are you kidding?

    Plus, social indicators are just arbitrary meters...have you been to Egypt? Did you see how people live in its villages? Without electric current, barely enough water, etc...
    1.) Massively increased literacy, access to information, transportation opportunities, overall living standards...its not that difficult to compare.

    2.) No, were you kidding when you actually compared creationism with the belief that apostates should be killed?

    3.) Have you been to the countries with much worse social indicators? How do you use an economic development paradigm to explain differences on the issue of religious freedom (namely, less hostility to it in most such countries)? If its a causal factor rather than a correlation, then its neither a necessary nor sufficient one.

  6. #46
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    7w8
    Socionics
    ENTj
    Posts
    5,908

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    1.) Massively increased literacy, access to information, transportation opportunities, overall living standards...its not that difficult to compare.
    You must be kidding. This is true only for relatively well-off people living in big cities (Alexandria, Cairo). Check out how they conducted the survey - they tried to construct a spatially uniform sample.

    3.) Have you been to the countries with much worse social indicators? How do you use an economic development paradigm to explain differences on the issue of religious freedom (namely, less hostility to it in most such countries)? If its a causal factor rather than a correlation, then its neither a necessary nor sufficient one.
    Your ideology is blinding you. You can't treat a socially developed phenomena like a religion with axiomatic criteria.
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  7. #47
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    3,705

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Check out how they conducted the survey - they tried to construct a spatially uniform sample.

    So do the various international organizations that measure social indicators; even putting aside your strange insistence that opportunities and living standards for the rural poor in Egypt are approximately as bad as they were for most people in medieval Europe (btw, a crowded and filthy bus-ride to a large metropolis every few months and occasionaly overhearing the radio of the richest person in the village is in itself much better than the medieval poor had-and most Egptian rural poor are not quite as cut off from the modern world as even that), the percentage of urban dwellers is much higher than the percentage of Egyptian Muslims who oppose executing apostates.

    Your ideology is blinding you. You can't treat a socially developed phenomena like a religion with axiomatic criteria.

    The fact that its socially developed phenomena rather than a consequence of economic under-development is precisely my point; thank you for admitting it. What is your point again?
    Answers are contained in the quote above; the computer I'm using is too wonky right now to allow editing, and I don't want to retype what is already there.

  8. #48
    Tempbanned
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    6w5 sx/so
    Posts
    8,162

    Default

    And I thought you was just a lowtech redneck...

  9. #49
    Senior Member Greta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    MBTI
    INTe
    Posts
    166

    Default

    Thanks for posting. I, for one, find the depth of hateful intolerance suggested by these numbers newsworthy - shocking, really. In an age where so much has been assailed as "Islamophobia," and simple fact obfucated (intentionally?), it's good to hear from the horses' mouths.

  10. #50
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    5w6 sp/so
    Socionics
    SLI None
    Posts
    6,168

    Default

    The application for the OP is when someone has left Islam rather than someone who wasn't in it at all. I don't see it surprising at all really nor do I see it a threat. To muslims it's quite as easy as giving up one's Islamic faith means they are committing ultimate blasphemy against God which in turn means they have no right to live by what God gave them. Leveling the average muslim's belief on what emotions they are to have towards a human compared to their emotions they are to have towards God would put humans on a critical position.
    Though what's funny about these beliefs is the lack of people's actions towards it. I really would only believe the ones who would choose their death for such a matter would be a minority of a minority.

Similar Threads

  1. music that reminds you of different types
    By Riva in forum Arts & Entertainment
    Replies: 129
    Last Post: 10-24-2013, 04:59 PM
  2. Gallup research polls reveal high Muslim support for US, Obama, and moderate Islam
    By ajblaise in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 12-19-2010, 07:41 AM
  3. Post a song that fits one of your friends
    By paradox fox in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 08-18-2010, 05:34 PM
  4. Replies: 14
    Last Post: 01-25-2009, 02:20 AM
  5. [NT] really mean things you've said that you sort of regret a little maybe
    By murkrow in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 45
    Last Post: 08-04-2008, 04:03 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO