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  1. #31
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craft View Post
    I'll be a part of this 3/4. Not because I support "death" but I support religious unity, fake or not, for political(ergo, traditional) reasons. Being in a religion does not really mean anything except to maintain constitutional foundation.
    Political theory has progressed markedly since medieval times; I would suggest you educate yourself about the consequences of failing to uphold basic religious freedom. Or you could just save yourself the trouble and look at Pakistan.

  2. #32
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    I'm not sure why everyone insists on focusing on the rhetoric of the OP to the exclusion of discussing the meat of the issue. I mean, it's fine to point out that the OP was not 100% unbiased. I agree, the term "extremist" could have been swapped for a more factual and less values-based description of the study findings, if communicating wholly without bias was important to the OP. Pretend it was--what now? I find it hard to believe that nobody else is troubled by a majority of the population in certain countries believing, in the 21st century, that people who leave the religion should be put to death. Is it just that nobody is surprised by the study findings?
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  3. #33
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I'm not sure why everyone insists on focusing on the rhetoric of the OP to the exclusion of discussing the meat of the issue. I mean, it's fine to point out that the OP was not 100% unbiased. I agree, the term "extremist" could have been swapped for a more factual and less values-based description of the study findings, if communicating wholly without bias was important to the OP. Pretend it was--what now? I find it hard to believe that nobody else is troubled by a majority of the population in certain countries believing, in the 21st century, that people who leave the religion should be put to death. Is it just that nobody is surprised by the study findings?
    No, because I have been to Egypt and I think it can't really be considered the same as 21-st century Europe or USA. Its average level of development (especially when villages are taken into account) is more similar to medieval Europe, I believe - a time when killing anyone which wanted to convert to another religion would have been considered quite legitimate.
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  4. #34
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    ^^I'm not really surprised, personally, although it is saddening, and would be shocking if we hadn't heard so very much about human rights violations in many extremist Muslim countries. It just kinda blends in after a while.
    -end of thread-

  5. #35
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    No, because I have been to Egypt and I think it can't really be considered the same as 21-st century Europe or USA. Its average level of development (especially when villages are taken into account) is more similar to medieval Europe, I believe - a time when killing anyone which wanted to convert to another religion would have been considered quite legitimate.
    Fair enough. I've often thought that Islam seems like a "younger" religion than Christianity or Judaism, literally and figuratively.

    And Randomnity, also good point. I get a little hitchy when moral relativism (which is not without its uses) gets turned into a way to ignore egregious human rights violations.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  6. #36
    Probably Most Brilliant Craft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Political theory has progressed markedly since medieval times; I would suggest you educate yourself about the consequences of failing to uphold basic religious freedom. Or you could just save yourself the trouble and look at Pakistan.
    I don't see how this is any related to my point. In addition, "freedom" is only for the countries that are ready for it; it is harmful for those not. A lack of organization brings developing countries doom.

  7. #37
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I'm not sure why everyone insists on focusing on the rhetoric of the OP to the exclusion of discussing the meat of the issue. I mean, it's fine to point out that the OP was not 100% unbiased. I agree, the term "extremist" could have been swapped for a more factual and less values-based description of the study findings, if communicating wholly without bias was important to the OP. Pretend it was--what now? I find it hard to believe that nobody else is troubled by a majority of the population in certain countries believing, in the 21st century, that people who leave the religion should be put to death. Is it just that nobody is surprised by the study findings?
    Because other than the rhetoric, there's nothing really to discuss. If he had started a thread about the sky being blue it would have been equally profound.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  8. #38
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Because other than the rhetoric, there's nothing really to discuss. If he had started a thread about the sky being blue it would have been equally profound.
    1.) Its important new statistical information that most people are unaware of; that's reason enough to start a thread on it.

    2.) If you're so inclined (and if you're not, I have no idea why you read politics, history, and current events threads), you can discuss the implications of new information as it relates to other issues and events, speculate as to how various actors can seek to change things, or even just deconstruct how current circumstances came about as a matter of intellectual curiosity.

  9. #39
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    No, because I have been to Egypt and I think it can't really be considered the same as 21-st century Europe or USA. Its average level of development (especially when villages are taken into account) is more similar to medieval Europe, I believe - a time when killing anyone which wanted to convert to another religion would have been considered quite legitimate.
    Living standards and social indicators are astronomically better in contemporary Egypt than in medieval Europe, and the same indicators are lower in dozens of countres with less 'medieval' beliefs regarding religious freedom.

  10. #40
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craft View Post
    I don't see how this is any related to my point. In addition, "freedom" is only for the countries that are ready for it; it is harmful for those not. A lack of organization brings developing countries doom.
    Your 'point' being that the citizens of a country must be forcibly limited to an extremely narrow set of beliefs and preferences in order for societies to become developed and prosperous? My point was that without basic religious freedom, Pakistan (and other large countries with a religiously diverse* populations) will be doomed to perpetual strife and economic stagnation as a result of essentially following your advice, and that all of this is predictable.

    *though non-Muslims are a small minority, beliefs within the Muslim community are quite diverse overall.

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