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  1. #11
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    So what? Many people in the US would like to teach creationism in schools.
    Are you being ironic, or are you serious? I can't even tell any more...

    Are the execution of apostates and teaching kids unscientific bullshit really morally equivalent to you?

  2. #12
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Even if they were equivalent, "many people in the US" does not imply a majority of Americans or even a majority of American Christians (I don't know that for sure but I suspect it is mostly the loudest sort of Christian).

    And they're not equivalent.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  3. #13
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    This is as good a place as any to put this...

    As a person who values religious tolerance and taking evildoers (especially institutional evildoers) to task just about equally, I'm on a bit of a see-saw when it comes to Islam. I think Muslims are just as capable as Christians or atheists or Jews or agnostics or anybody else to rightly balance their own beliefs with the rights of others. And I believe many Muslims do this just fine. But culturally, I don't think it is happening in many predominantly Muslim countries. Can we not come right out and say that some things are just awful? Execution for apostasy, violent subjugation of women, attacks on even fervent Muslim believers who advocate tolerance? These things suck, guys. It's okay to say so. And it should go without saying that opposing those things doesn't preclude also opposing things that suck that Christian organizations or atheist groups or individuals do.

    At the same time it's important to me to balance that with the knowledge that not every Muslim supports things that suck. This guy is awesome and there are many like him. Support of moderate Muslims would go a long way in proving we're really interested in stopping the violence, not in eradicating the Muslim religion or just hating on Muslims for being brown. I'm not anti-Muslim for thinking the violence should end, any more than I am anti-Catholic for disapproving of some of the actions of the RCC. I hope that we can start looking at these issues with a bit more nuance than that.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  4. #14
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    That's a great point, 100% agreed.

    A lot of the time there's this focus on Islam itself when the focus should really be the way the country/culture is governed. Most Muslims from these areas who immigrate to Western countries don't continue to hold these nasty beliefs about how certain people should be treated, or at the very least are wise enough not to speak about or act on them (with a few very publicized exceptions).

    And, lots of non-islamic countries have human rights violations. China, probably some African countries, etc...non-muslims are perfectly capable of committing atrocities.
    -end of thread-

  5. #15
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Do 3/4 of Muslims in Pakistan and Egypt also support suicide bombers? I ask because "extremist" is a broad, vague term that evokes an emotional response in people, often contrary to the "official" definition. I would suggest that you be more careful with your wording in the future.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #16
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Do 3/4 of Muslims in Pakistan and Egypt also support suicide bombers? I ask because "extremist" is a broad, vague term that evokes an emotional response in people, often contrary to the "official" definition. I would suggest that you be more careful with your wording in the future.
    For the purposes of this thread, my sole criteria for extremism is whether or not someone supports the death penalty for apostasy (its actually a substantially higher percentage than 75% in Egypt, btw). If this thread concerned support for suicide bombing (I actually think the belief that apostates should be executed to be far worse as a moral position, and in a consequental sense worse in the long run, than support for suicide bombing), then I would have characterized them as having militant views.

    Edit: And to answer your specific question, no; 80% of Muslims in Pakistan think that suicide bombing is 'never justified' and 46% of Egyptian Muslims answered the same (most of the rest said that they were 'rarely justified').

  7. #17
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    I thought I posted in this thread. Did it have a different title too?

  8. #18
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    If 3/4s hold extremist views, could we not say that they are, perhaps, not extremist views?

    Is the very definition of extreme one that implies a serious deviation from the norm? Does 3/4s not represent "the norm?"

    Basically, this poll defies reason in a way that renders any conclusions derived from it dubious at best, completely irrelevant at worst.

  9. #19
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    If 3/4s hold extremist views, could we not say that they are, perhaps, not extremist views?

    Is the very definition of extreme one that implies a serious deviation from the norm? Does 3/4s not represent "the norm?"

    Basically, this poll defies reason in a way that renders any conclusions derived from it dubious at best, completely irrelevant at worst.
    The poll didn't ask repondants if they had extremist views (there is a link, y'know...), it asked (among other things) whether they thought apostates should be executed-there wasn't enough room for specifics on the thread title, and attempts on my part to use alternative (and profane) language to get the same point across was deemed in violation of forum regulations. You'll need to come up with another excuse to dismiss the results as 'dubious' or 'irrelevant'.

  10. #20
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Irrelevant is probably the incorrect word. It is, however, fallacious to label a majority's consensus as extremist in the context of the population being questioned. One could compare various populations and assign relative values to each of them, but claiming that 3/4s of any nation's population can hold extremist views only serves to display a misunderstanding of the definition of extreme. When a majority reaches a consensus, whatever it may be, it can no longer be considered extreme.

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