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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'm not manichean in the least, I dont know how you read that into my post but you may be reading more than is actually written there...
    I got it from here:

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark
    This is like that "beyond good or evil" BS, you dont get beyond either, you're either good, evil or really good or really evil but that's your dichotomy there.
    Not sure how that's not read as Manichean...?

    Moving on...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark
    ...I wouldnt claim that faith schools are a panacea but that their eradication through integration into a single generalised, secularist, one size fits all will prove to be a panacea either, as is suggested, at least here. It could actually have the opposite effect.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but did you mention in your OP that this has something to do with budget cuts?

    If so, does this proposed change (honestly, I know nothing about your school system, or this proposal, aside from what you've written) have more to do with a non-budget-related change in philosophy, or trying to shrink the budget in trying times for the country?

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Why should citizens with different beliefs be forced to support sectarian education in government schools (that means 'public schools' in the States, and 'private schools' likewise has the opposite definition) through their taxes? What exactly do you find objectionable about RC students going to school with Protestant/other students?
    I dont find that objectionable, where did you read that? I wouldnt send children of my own to a secularist athiest school but if people elect to do so then, well, everyone's got their own way of going mad and everyone makes an evaluation themselves, I knew RCs who went to secularist schools. My objection is to having the element of choice removed and condemning the choice to attend a single identity faith school.

    Why should they support it with their taxes when they find it objectionable? Because taxation is not a consumer exchange, taxation exists to provide essential services and it is set up in ways that prevents or minimises free rider or free loader problems because otherwise there will be people who benefit from services but refuse to foot the bill. There are plenty of things I'm sure I would take exception to in terms of public spending but besides seeking to influence this at elections I accept that its not possible, at least presently, to have some sort of itemised tax bill where you can effectively cherry pick what you'd like to pay for. In the final instance I believe that people who pay taxes for education are entitled to expect that their schools will receive revenues from the taxes they have paid.

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I got it from here:



    Not sure how that's not read as Manichean...?

    Moving on...



    Correct me if I'm wrong, but did you mention in your OP that this has something to do with budget cuts?

    If so, does this proposed change (honestly, I know nothing about your school system, or this proposal, aside from what you've written) have more to do with a non-budget-related change in philosophy, or trying to shrink the budget in trying times for the country?
    No I dont believe that's manichean, its a misnomer to describe it as such, there are objective standards of right and wrong and good and evil but there is also diversity, choice or relative goods and bads, which I dont believe a manichean would believe necessarily.

    There's a lot of things in the UK at the present time which no one would support or condone which are being sold to people on the basis that there is no mone there to pay for them, the recession, fiscal mismanagement by previous government get blamed but its largely ideological smoke screen.

    Budget cuts are being used as reason for greater integration but there's demographic shifts too, communities which have shrunk or the character of which have changed find they can no longer maintain schools with such small numbers of pupils now face the prospect of integration but want this on a kind of "we'll all adopt a secular non-denominational approach together" way, I see that as people being asked to give up a lot to placate the fears of one time majorities turned minorities.

  4. #24
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    What do you mean by public schools?

    In the UK public schools can sometimes mean exclusive private/subscription based schools, I've never really understood this but I think its got something to do with the difference between home tuition which was originally the only form of education prior to the schooling of groups of pupils.

    In NI the division is between secondary schools and grammer schools, a process of selection used to determine academic aptitude at 11yrs and you went to one or the other, anyone could go to either school without paying for the education, they are maintained from money from the Church and taxes so far as I know. The process of academic selection is being dropped but no one really has an idea what to replace it with yet and a lot of parents, even kids, dont want to abandon selection. I'm totally opposed to it. I failed the test at eleven and have sort of been compensating since (I've a massive library on every conceiveable topic, I've got qualifications from a technical college, a degree, masters and vocational diploma and would go to university again if it wouldnt financially ruin me).

    Until 17, when I went to college which was a mixed institution of all religions and none, I never experienced sectarianism or anti-roman catholicism, I dont just mean the popular, liberal, athiest variety either. I'm glad I didnt have that to contend with until I was older, even at that I found it very difficult to deal with. There are two things which bother me about integration, children will be placed in situations where they will find peer pressure a challenge and not be mature enough to deal with it, consequently they could abandon their faith and morals and the implicit value judgements that a single identity faith schools foster division, they do not and often refrain explicitly from any kind of evangelical message, mine certainly did and I never felt any compulsion to try and convert others to my faith or have them conform to my faith but I did encounter that in protestant friends.
    Oh interesting. In the US, 'public' school means that it's paid for by taxes. Any child can attend for no cost. You can elect to attend another institution, but you would have to pay for it (or a portion of it), I think even if you attended a Catholic or other religious school the student's family would still typically pay at least some of the tuition, unless they got some kind of sponsorship/scholarship. In a lot of big cities there are what are called 'magnet' schools - which draw students with particular aptitude, like in music or science or math. You typically have to test into those schools, but otherwise it's pretty much determined by which district you live in. Most people I know were educated through the standard public school system. There are also things like vouchers and charter schools, but that's the basic idea at least. Hope that's clear.

    At age 11, when you take the exam, how does your score determine which school you'd go to (religious or state-funded)? Is one more competitive than the other? Do any of the Catholic kids attend the state-funded schools?
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  5. #25
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Yeah, I hope you're a young liberal because if you arent how did you reach such uninformed opinions?

    Of course I believe that morals should be taught in schools, I also believe that morals are very concrete things too, and I also believe its impossible that morality will not be taught in schools since schools are the major sources of secondary socialisation, families and friends being the source of primary socialisation, the deliberate omission of concrete morality is itself a moral precept. This is like that "beyond good or evil" BS, you dont get beyond either, you're either good, evil or really good or really evil but that's your dichotomy there.

    The disasterous attempts to eschew morality and authority has caused the majority of problems in the world today if you ask me.

    RC education is the norm all over the world in RC communities, its not simply a norm in Ireland and it is not a case of forcing people to receive religious training, you've no idea how absurd that sounds to me, likewise the notion that its possible to refrain from an education in faith and morals until such times that someone can exercise "choice" in the matter, the reality is that, as I've said, if you neglect to develop the understand of faith and morals is not as though development per se doesnt happen, it does, its likely to be something very far removed from what would be desirable and be little more than a mirror of the poorest and rudest qualities of popular culture, pop ideology and whatever underpins the economy and status quo.

    If the schools are better why should that be so? I mean the nightmare you paint of schooling in faith and morals leads me to believe that it would be impossible that the school could perform academically superior to other faith schools or those with no faith component. The final part of your post seals the deal for me and reveals everything about your perspective, you've already passed judgement on RC schools and found them the author of discrimination and injustice. Not much to be said then.
    My bad, I forgot you're incapable of reasonable discussion without resorting to name-calling, strawmen and hyperbole. Have fun in your sandbox.
    -end of thread-

  6. #26
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    What do you mean by public schools?

    In the UK public schools can sometimes mean exclusive private/subscription based schools, I've never really understood this but I think its got something to do with the difference between home tuition which was originally the only form of education prior to the schooling of groups of pupils.

    In NI the division is between secondary schools and grammer schools, a process of selection used to determine academic aptitude at 11yrs and you went to one or the other, anyone could go to either school without paying for the education, they are maintained from money from the Church and taxes so far as I know. The process of academic selection is being dropped but no one really has an idea what to replace it with yet and a lot of parents, even kids, dont want to abandon selection. I'm totally opposed to it. I failed the test at eleven and have sort of been compensating since (I've a massive library on every conceiveable topic, I've got qualifications from a technical college, a degree, masters and vocational diploma and would go to university again if it wouldnt financially ruin me).

    Until 17, when I went to college which was a mixed institution of all religions and none, I never experienced sectarianism or anti-roman catholicism, I dont just mean the popular, liberal, athiest variety either. I'm glad I didnt have that to contend with until I was older, even at that I found it very difficult to deal with. There are two things which bother me about integration, children will be placed in situations where they will find peer pressure a challenge and not be mature enough to deal with it, consequently they could abandon their faith and morals and the implicit value judgements that a single identity faith schools foster division, they do not and often refrain explicitly from any kind of evangelical message, mine certainly did and I never felt any compulsion to try and convert others to my faith or have them conform to my faith but I did encounter that in protestant friends.
    In the US, public schools are funded by the government. Private schools are not. Public schools are required to be non-religious. Private schools can be whatever they want to be.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    My bad, I forgot you're incapable of reasonable discussion without resorting to name-calling, strawmen and hyperbole. Have fun in your sandbox.

  8. #28
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'm totally against the integration of schools.

    I've felt this way for a very long time and I'm getting increasingly aggrieved by the way in which integration is advocated as a cure all for cuts and cost management in education and schooling in Northern Ireland but also generally in the UK or throughout the world.

    The reality there's nothing about an RC education which is sectarian or polarising, in fact I'd say that a proper RC education incorporating faith and morals would incorporate respect for others without necessarily endorsing/approving/advocating their lifestyles, traditions and beliefs and I think that's something which the world needs to learn actually.

    I dont like the idea that you have to abandon or disown or otherwise drop your own traditions and beliefs in order to tolerate or co-exist with others.
    Jesus did.

  9. #29
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    ^ :nod:

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    Oh interesting. In the US, 'public' school means that it's paid for by taxes. Any child can attend for no cost. You can elect to attend another institution, but you would have to pay for it (or a portion of it), I think even if you attended a Catholic or other religious school the student's family would still typically pay at least some of the tuition, unless they got some kind of sponsorship/scholarship. In a lot of big cities there are what are called 'magnet' schools - which draw students with particular aptitude, like in music or science or math. You typically have to test into those schools, but otherwise it's pretty much determined by which district you live in. Most people I know were educated through the standard public school system. There are also things like vouchers and charter schools, but that's the basic idea at least. Hope that's clear.

    At age 11, when you take the exam, how does your score determine which school you'd go to (religious or state-funded)? Is one more competitive than the other? Do any of the Catholic kids attend the state-funded schools?
    Ireland is a theocracy by tradition. According to theocracy, the state is by God.
    Other models of theocratic state exist only in the most backward countries of the Muslim world.
    Because of the rampant sexual abuse of minors, and use of slave labour in and by the Church, the theocracy has lost stature in recent times.
    Lark opposes the inevitable change. It is too late.

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