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  1. #11
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    Religion??? Whatever.. Lets get the schools segregated by gender again.. I am not sure how much more evidence we are going to need to understand that males and females are NOT IDENTICAL..

    This is not a moral,political or ethical question.. It has nothing to do with EQUALITY.

    It is a scientific question.. and one that has been answered with proof.
    Men and women learn differently and require a different environment and approach to learning.
    This is because our brains tend to work every differently.

    This is the most crucial issue facing modern society.. men and and women are NOT identical.. we really need to stop pretending they are, in the name of political correctness.
    Yeah, people dont need to be identical or uniform to be equal and I reckon people are clueless enough about the opposite sex without deciding to segregate.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark
    Yeah, I hope you're a young liberal because if you arent how did you reach such uninformed opinions?

    Of course I believe that morals should be taught in schools, I also believe that morals are very concrete things too, and I also believe its impossible that morality will not be taught in schools since schools are the major sources of secondary socialisation, families and friends being the source of primary socialisation, the deliberate omission of concrete morality is itself a moral precept. This is like that "beyond good or evil" BS, you dont get beyond either, you're either good, evil or really good or really evil but that's your dichotomy there.

    The disasterous attempts to eschew morality and authority has caused the majority of problems in the world today if you ask me.

    RC education is the norm all over the world in RC communities, its not simply a norm in Ireland and it is not a case of forcing people to receive religious training, you've no idea how absurd that sounds to me, likewise the notion that its possible to refrain from an education in faith and morals until such times that someone can exercise "choice" in the matter, the reality is that, as I've said, if you neglect to develop the understand of faith and morals is not as though development per se doesnt happen, it does, its likely to be something very far removed from what would be desirable and be little more than a mirror of the poorest and rudest qualities of popular culture, pop ideology and whatever underpins the economy and status quo.

    If the schools are better why should that be so? I mean the nightmare you paint of schooling in faith and morals leads me to believe that it would be impossible that the school could perform academically superior to other faith schools or those with no faith component. The final part of your post seals the deal for me and reveals everything about your perspective, you've already passed judgement on RC schools and found them the author of discrimination and injustice. Not much to be said then.
    I actually agree with much of what you said, Lark, particularly about not-teaching-morality as being a moral precept in and of itself.

    What I don't agree with is your blatant Manichaeism (I can tolerate such thinking to an extent, and practice my own nuanced version of it myself, but yours seems far too black-and-white, and you seem too uncritically receptive of it).

    It also seems like you give just as much, if not more, credit to the good that this kind of education creates as the detractors would take away from it, and thus commit the same error of judgment, just in opposite direction. I'm not sure this kind of education is really all that great, and there's plenty of schools without it (or other religious persuasions), that produce excellent students.

    Also, you implied too strongly that not teaching morality at school must necessarily lead to the moral decay of the students, which is not necessarily true. You yourself touched upon the importance of family and friends, and I would say that the family is, first and foremost, the source of students' moral understanding.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Yeah, people dont need to be identical or uniform to be equal and I reckon people are clueless enough about the opposite sex without deciding to segregate.
    The solution is simple.. You don't segregate the schools.. You segregate the classes.. Just like they do for Phys Ed.. they got that much figured out.. why not the rest??

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    Lark, are the RC schools public schools as well, or are they more of an alternative to public schooling?
    What do you mean by public schools?

    In the UK public schools can sometimes mean exclusive private/subscription based schools, I've never really understood this but I think its got something to do with the difference between home tuition which was originally the only form of education prior to the schooling of groups of pupils.

    In NI the division is between secondary schools and grammer schools, a process of selection used to determine academic aptitude at 11yrs and you went to one or the other, anyone could go to either school without paying for the education, they are maintained from money from the Church and taxes so far as I know. The process of academic selection is being dropped but no one really has an idea what to replace it with yet and a lot of parents, even kids, dont want to abandon selection. I'm totally opposed to it. I failed the test at eleven and have sort of been compensating since (I've a massive library on every conceiveable topic, I've got qualifications from a technical college, a degree, masters and vocational diploma and would go to university again if it wouldnt financially ruin me).

    Until 17, when I went to college which was a mixed institution of all religions and none, I never experienced sectarianism or anti-roman catholicism, I dont just mean the popular, liberal, athiest variety either. I'm glad I didnt have that to contend with until I was older, even at that I found it very difficult to deal with. There are two things which bother me about integration, children will be placed in situations where they will find peer pressure a challenge and not be mature enough to deal with it, consequently they could abandon their faith and morals and the implicit value judgements that a single identity faith schools foster division, they do not and often refrain explicitly from any kind of evangelical message, mine certainly did and I never felt any compulsion to try and convert others to my faith or have them conform to my faith but I did encounter that in protestant friends.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    The solution is simple.. You don't segregate the schools.. You segregate the classes.. Just like they do for Phys Ed.. they got that much figured out.. why not the rest??
    P.E. at my schools was never segregated...

    Do you also believe the workplace should be segregated?

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I actually agree with much of what you said, Lark, particularly about not-teaching-morality as a moral precept in and of itself.

    What I don't agree with is your blatant Manichaeism (I can tolerate such thinking to an extent, and practice my own nuanced version of it myself, but yours seems far too black-and-white).

    It also seems like you give just as much, if not more, credit to the good that this kind of education creates as the detractors would take away from it, and thus commit the same error of judgment, just in opposite direction. I'm not sure this kind of education is really all that great, and there's plenty of schools without it (or other religious persuasions), that produce excellent students.

    Also, you implied too strongly that not teaching morality at school must necessarily lead to the moral decay of the students, which is not necessarily true. You yourself touched upon the importance of family and friends, and I would say that the family is, first and foremost, the source of students' moral understanding.
    I agree with you that primary socialisation is of paramouncy when determining character, I consider that in a holistic way and I do believe that moral judgement and consequential thinking are psychological traits which develop or are strongly influenced by socialisation, however secondary socialisation has become more and more significant with the changes which have taken place in family culture etc.

    I'm not manichean in the least, I dont know how you read that into my post but you may be reading more than is actually written there, I wouldnt claim that faith schools are a panacea but that their eradication through integration into a single generalised, secularist, one size fits all will prove to be a panacea either, as is suggested, at least here. It could actually have the opposite effect.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    P.E. at my schools was never segregated...

    Do you also believe the workplace should be segregated?
    Nope.. not the same concept at all.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    The solution is simple.. You don't segregate the schools.. You segregate the classes.. Just like they do for Phys Ed.. they got that much figured out.. why not the rest??
    You're still talking about gender segregation?

    Perhaps, I know schools which do that here in NI, I know that of the guys who went to them some of them are shockingly shy around women or can not tolerate being alone or single very well and I dont believe that the presence of females or males was overwhelmingly distracting to anyone, infact I've seen it work to encourage all but the most dimwitted (seriously) to actually behave themselves as they do not want to embarrass themselves.

  9. #19
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I dont like the idea that you have to abandon or disown or otherwise drop your own traditions and beliefs in order to tolerate or co-exist with others.
    Why should citizens with different beliefs be forced to support sectarian education in government schools (that means 'public schools' in the States, and 'private schools' likewise has the opposite definition) through their taxes? What exactly do you find objectionable about RC students going to school with Protestant/other students?

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    Nope.. not the same concept at all.
    University courses?

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