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Thread: Super Tuesday

  1. #161
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    don't think I'm not pissed off about the buisness/government in bed partnership

    I'd simply trust a group of people elected by everyone else- no matter how imperfect our electoral system is- than a group of people who I have no say over- such as a corporation.
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  2. #162
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    don't think I'm not pissed off about the buisness/government in bed partnership

    I'd simply trust a group of people elected by everyone else- no matter how imperfect our electoral system is- than a group of people who I have no say over- such as a corporation.
    Well, consider... if a business screws you over, you can invoke the law. If your government screws you over, they ARE the law.

    That aside, members of both business and government can be depended upon consistently to do one thing, and that's look after their own interests. Success in business favors those who are smart, hard-working, and good at making themselves look good. Success in politics favors those who are smart, hard-working, and good at making themselves look good. Both come with their share of mandated accountability, and neither particularly favors ethics.

    Essentially, I'm saying you can count on some folks to be no damn good whether they're in business or in politics. It's unreasonable (and in the long run, unwise) to favor one group over the other.

  3. #163
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    don't think I'm not pissed off about the buisness/government in bed partnership
    Yeah... what the he11 is this US vs. Kelo thing about, anyway?!?

  4. #164
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Well, consider... if a business screws you over, you can invoke the law. If your government screws you over, they ARE the law.

    That aside, members of both business and government can be depended upon consistently to do one thing, and that's look after their own interests. Success in business favors those who are smart, hard-working, and good at making themselves look good. Success in politics favors those who are smart, hard-working, and good at making themselves look good. Both come with their share of mandated accountability, and neither particularly favors ethics.

    Essentially, I'm saying you can count on some folks to be no damn good whether they're in business or in politics. It's unreasonable (and in the long run, unwise) to favor one group over the other.
    I'm just more in favor of those who you can get rid of slightly easier!

    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Yeah... what the he11 is this US vs. Kelo thing about, anyway?!?

    some eminent domain case- sounds a lot like something that happened in my home county a while back when a factory was offering to move in and wanted more land around it, so they got the county govt. to condemn the houses since they wouldn't sell

    the whole decision was based on wordings of things- almost as bad as some cases that are based on the placement of a comma or misuse of a semicolon- and the arguments that both sides used are about as entertaining as with Bush v Gore

    see- why do we even need an entertainment industry when we have a government?
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  5. #165
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    I suggest to Oberon that he take a break from this thread, clear out all the political slogans from his head, and than come back once its done to write better ideas than the ones getting produced currently.

    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Private industry drives our national economy. All government income comes from taxes levied on businesses, on trade, on sales, or on income, all of which depend on private enterprise. Furthermore, most of the income that provides for the needs of individuals and families also comes from private enterprise. That means mining, timber, manufacturing, technology, pharmaceuticals, sheer financial investment, all these business interests that many here consider evil.

    Take away the capacity for profit, and the entire economy (including government-provided services) grinds to a halt.
    This by and large true. It does not make untrue anything described in my earlier post, about how people are rewarded for making various decisions. (

    I think it's probably a mistake to think that government is ever either more or less benevolent than industry. In recent years especially, they seem to be in league.
    Again, it is possible to make predictions of whether one will be more or less "benevolent" than the other one, or vs. something else. In the case of pollution in the way the current system works, I would expect government to in general be more likely to respond to pollution problems, averaged over the different possibilities for how governments, business, and other groups of people interact.

  6. #166
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zergling View Post
    I suggest to Oberon that he take a break from this thread, clear out all the political slogans from his head, and than come back once its done to write better ideas than the ones getting produced currently.
    You're not discussing ideas any more, are you.

  7. #167
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zergling View Post
    The money from taxes is, in a sense, people buying an army, roads, police, fire departments, etc., whereas money going to factories is most often simply for producing products, as a lot of people don't care enough to know how much pollution is being done, so it won't effect the decisions of people working at the business as much, depending on how much people do care. (to use the factory pollution example.)
    The point I was making in quoting this earlier (and which you apparently didn't perceive) was as follows:

    While money that goes to taxes buys public services, money that goes to private industry also buys things of value to the society. That money that you say "...is most often simply for producing products..." is what pays for the jobs in both the private and public sectors. In this context, though profit isn't any good for controlling pollution, it is necessary in order to have an economy, which is in turn necessary for our lives.

    Private industry may not be all that good at controlling pollution, but on the other hand government is not all that good at creating prosperity.

    I am willing to see the public works side of the equation. I would like you to please acknowledge the private industry side.

  8. #168
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    I would like to point out that what Oberon is talking about, in regards to private industry fueling the national economy, is relatively obvious when you look at things like our recovery from the Great Depression and one of the motivating factors behind the new economic stimulus bill. I really dont' see how your two points are mutually exclusive. Yes, tax money buys necessary things, and yes, private industry is ultimately equally necessary for our national success, and the individual success that leads to tax money.
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

    Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office
    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  9. #169
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    I would like to point out that what Oberon is talking about, in regards to private industry fueling the national economy, is relatively obvious when you look at things like our recovery from the Great Depression and one of the motivating factors behind the new economic stimulus bill. I really dont' see how your two points are mutually exclusive. Yes, tax money buys necessary things, and yes, private industry is ultimately equally necessary for our national success, and the individual success that leads to tax money.

    supply side v. demand side- it all boils down to a nice old fashioned economics argument that will never be resolved!

    and when do I get a prize for using the most emoticons in a politically related post?
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  10. #170
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    supply side v. demand side- it all boils down to a nice old fashioned economics argument that will never be resolved!
    I'm real clear on the two-sides thing. I would like it if someone would just acknowledge that businesss isn't intrinsically evil, please?

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